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Thread: The truth about pocket folders as defensive tools?

  1. #21
    Chris Fry of MDTS Training has built awesome coursework for this very situation. He has both a two or four hour short block that he teaches at various Tac Cons (he just did it most recently at PeP3, and will very probably be doing it at Rangemaster next year). He also does it as a full day course as well, I know he was teaching it at Triple Aught Design in San Fran a few weeks ago, and regularly runs it in the NE US. I am trying to figure out how to get him out to AZ to do it as well soon.

    I think his general take on folders and how to use them, but more importantly, how to TRAIN them, is as good as it gets. Hopefully soon, he will commit some of it to DVD. If you go to his website, he has a number of articles on this subject, as well as reviews of various folders.

    http://www.mdtstraining.com/
    Last edited by Cecil Burch; 11-11-2015 at 01:43 PM.
    For info about training or to contact me:
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  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_Jones View Post
    The only folding knife I carry for "defensive" purposes is the Spyderco P'Kal, and then only when I'm someplace where a concealed fixed blade is a felony.

    SouthNarc has a couple of good videos on YouTube that demonstrate how to use it's wave feature to deploy it into a RGEI orientation:





    It's a really good idea to practice your draw/deployment with a P'Kal trainer a LOT before dicking around too much with the live blade.
    tom, the videos are not working.

  3. #23
    Gray Hobbyist Wondering Beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_Jones View Post
    The only folding knife I carry for "defensive" purposes is the Spyderco P'Kal, and then only when I'm someplace where a concealed fixed blade is a felony.

    SouthNarc has a couple of good videos on YouTube that demonstrate how to use it's wave feature to deploy it into a RGEI orientation:





    It's a really good idea to practice your draw/deployment with a P'Kal trainer a LOT before dicking around too much with the live blade.
    Excellent stuff, however, it doesn't work that well if the waved knife has a disc instead of a hole, as the disc tends to get caught in that part of the pocket and you can miss the wave, resulting in you grabbing an unopened knife. A waved knife with a disc opener is best use IMO in the back of the pocket and deployed with a forward grip.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by StraitR View Post
    One thing I'm trying to figure out is how to deploy a knife with the wave feature more effectively. My plight, which I notice in every video of someone demonstrating the deployment of a waved knife, is that I end up with a poor grip that needs substantial readjustment. After the knife clears the pocked, fully locked open, what I'm left with is two fingers and thumb on the knife. So, I know it's fast into action, but what am I missing when it comes to getting it out of my pocket with a usable grip?

    For reference, I have three waved knives to use. Two Emersons and a Delica.

    Also, lot's of people seem to like pointy, which was also referenced by Nyeti (sharpened screwdrivers) as highly effective in another thread. So, what constitutes pointy? For the sake of comparison, let's use Emerson knives, as they run the gamut on blade shapes.

    Commander - not very pointy?
    Gentlemen Jim and Bandito bot seem extremely pointy.
    CQC-7 - pointy?
    CQC-8 - pointy enough?
    other examples, Emerson or otherwise?

    ETA: In contrast, I have a ZT0561 that I can remove from my pocket and deploy with the flipper while getting a usable grip seemingly quicker than any of my waved knives. I see so many people endorse the wave feature that I must be going wrong somewhere.
    About your deployment of a waved knife: it seems that you are grabbing too little of the handle as you're withdrawing the knife. My method (and it's just that, mine) is to push my thumb deep inside the pocket and have the rest of my fingers (on the outside of the pocket) loosely held. As the knife starts to come out, and the wave getting caught in the corner of the pocket, the base of my thumb and the base of my index finger start pinching the grip (near the choil/guard) so that when the wave has fully opened the knife, I have a full solid grip on it.

    As to pointy, my outlook on that is: does the unsharpened side of the blade create more or less friction on the flesh when it penetrates. A good experiment is push (not stab) a knife through cardboard (somewhat thin carboard like the ones Amazon uses to send small packages) and feel how much and where is the penetration slowed or not (a forward grip enables a better feel for that sort of experiment).

    When I did that experiment with some of my Emersons, the top three were: Persian, Gentleman Jim, CQC13 Bowie. The CQC 8 was middle of the pack (beat, but barely, by the CQC10 and CQC15 in my hands; in someone else's it could turn out different) and the CQC7 B, CQC7A and Commander were respectively dead last.

    For me, even though it doesn't a 'wave', the Persian is the best one (if it had a wave, you'd stab your leg during deployment); it penetrates with amazing ease (there are plenty of videos on YouTube and other places that show it), the continuous curve slashes and slices with great ease and because of the ergonomics of the handle and blade, it works really well with 'reverse grip - edge in' techniques. YMMV

  5. #25
    Member StraitR's Avatar
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    Great info by all. So, irregardless of the bandwidth size of application and shortcomings, it seems established that the folder is a viable defensive tool. I really like the info (videos) shared on the Spyderco P'kal, as the deployment is clear, and the overview video shows a general coarse direction for it's use, combined with crossing the technique over improvised weapons. For me, I think this could be the answer, as I've been carrying a Surefire E1B or EB1 in my left front pocket, in the same position, and use the same grip/deploy/strike method shown in the linked videos making the initial motion very familiar to me. Thanks again, and particularly to Tom/Misanthropist for the scope of their input. Looking forward to watching this topic play out, and learning. This is a new, yet very interesting topic for me.

    Got a meeting in a few, more later.

  6. #26

  7. #27
    Member StraitR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    Excellent. Thank you Cecil.

  8. #28
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickA View Post
    From my limited knowledge I'd agree with most of the above, not optimal, but doable. I've seen personally, and heard other reports of, people successfully using folders in ECQC evos. Mostly waved Spydercos.
    I've deployed my Spyderco P'kal folder twice in ECQC evos, never was able to draw my gun.
    Same experience in Cecils class, I was able to deploy my Delica while entangled but not my handgun.
    Last edited by JodyH; 11-11-2015 at 04:23 PM.
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
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  9. #29
    As to blade shape: I'm heartily in agreement with the comments above re: Emersons. The Persian and GJ are my favorites by far. Haven't had a Bandito in hand, but it looks like my style too. The Persian is a beast.

    The Persian has some of the advantages you get from a relatively straight pointed hawkbill, like the Clinch Pick or Reverse, but in opposite world. The same excellent pointy end, amazing slashing cuts, still maintaining a decent ability to rend and tear from RGEI. Where the CP type blade gets the pointy end, decent tear/rend in forward grip, and very powerful rending/tearing from the RGEI position, like big cat claw.

    I also want to second the point about a pocket shield with a small fixed blade like the CP or Reverse being a very good option in dressy clothes. Or if you want to run extra lo pro with no clips hanging out.

    I really like what Hatchetman has to say re having the blade ready if your spidey senses tingle. That really clicks with me.


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  10. #30
    Member StraitR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JodyH View Post
    I've deployed my Spyderco P'kal folder twice in ECQC evos, never was able to draw my gun.
    Same experience in Cecils class, I was able to deploy my Delica while entangled but not my handgun.
    Jody, do you carry on the same side, or opposite side of your handgun? I've been thinking it makes sense to keep a blade on the support side as a form of weapon retention and/or alternate option if weapon side is entangled, as you mentioned.

    How is everyone else carrying their folder?
    Last edited by StraitR; 11-11-2015 at 05:12 PM.

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