The truth about pocket folders as defensive tools?

[Sayoc01]

Take a Bram Frank seminar! I carry a Gunting as an EDC & a Karambit.If you are in NY the "best"guy to see is Jeff Chung!! Az.see Laci Szabo.In France Fred Perin.Don't know where SOUTHNARC is now located,haven't touched base with him in Yrs. S/N is top of the tier & a heck of a nice guy.I'm in Miami!
Jim

[BillSWPA]

Bringing an old thread back up, an find that the Spyderco version of Emerson’s wave is significantly more reliable, and significantly gentler on clothing, than Emerson’s version or versions used by other makers.

Regarding locks, I like rocker bar locks, Benchmade Axis locks, or Spyderco ball bearing locks. I have seen liner locks from well-known makers fail. Frame locks do not work well for me, since I end up putting inward pressure on the lock while trying to open the knife. Bram Frank’s puzzle lock also has considerable merit, and is one of two locking mechanisms I have seen that self-compensates for wear.

Although I own a few nice fixed blades, I typically do not carry them. If I am carrying a gun, a fixed blade is less of a priority. If I am someplace where I cannot carry a gun, I am most likely someplace where a fixed blade is in a legal gray area at best, and quite likely is simply illegal.



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[PX4 Storm Tracker]

A search of PF turned up several threads about folders and/or defensive knives, but nothing on the specific application of folders as defensive knives, and outside of a post or two in those threads, nothing with any detail.

Admittedly, I've been a knife nut since I was a child. I have more than a few blades in the safe, ranging from little gas station knives received as well intentioned gifts up to CRK Sebenza's and Busse fixed blades. That said, lately I've been pondering why, aside from simple enjoyment, I carry a large(ish) folder when 9/10 times I reach past it for the SAK Cadet at the bottom of my pocket when things need cutting. So I thought about reversing some pocket clips and and putting them on my support side for a defensive tool. Then it dawned on me, I don't know the first thing about defensive knife use aside from what my lizard brain tells me and whether or not the folding blade I EDC everyday is anything more than pocket jewelry.

Given the amount of edged weapon SME's, official and unofficial, as well as the experienced membership here on PF to leverage both knowledge and experience from, can we lay out the truth on deploying folders as defensive tools?


Here are some of the questions I've been attempting to find answers to as they pertain to a defensive pocket folder. For an EDC blade, I have my own preferences, but they may or may not apply to a defensive folder. Feel free to copy/paste as a Q&A format if you feel like tackling them.

- Are folders a feasible defensive option one can train and become proficient with, or is this just something people like to talk about online?

- If so, are there notable trainers doing classes geared specifically for folders? I really want to take EWO, bad. Ok, really bad.

- How about blade specifics for the role?
-blade styles and their pros/cons
-blade length, is there a minimum

- What about deployment methods? Auto, Assisted, Waved, Flippers, Manual? Thumb disc vs stud vs hole?

- Locking mechanisms, important? Liner, Axis, Frame lock, Compression?

- Blade steel, does it matter?

- How is a defensive folder best carried? Strong side, support side, other?

- Brand/Model preferences? Who's carrying what, where, and why?

- Do you have firsthand experience deploying a folder in a defensive role? Are you willing to share?

- Did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night?

This is an excellent thread.
We do a lot of intense training with knives for self-defense. I consider the knife you have on you as your primary defense tool. Relying on firearms is not as versatile, sufficient or as applicable in urban situations.

This is a very good thread and enjoyable.

[joshs]

While there is extensive information regarding your questions, the simple answer is that a fixed blade is far superior to a folder in every way other than concealment. If you can comfortably conceal a small fixed blade, you will be way better off.
If you absolutely have to carry a folder for some reason, a Spyderco Delica (waved or not) is hard to beat.

I still think this is very good advice. If you have to carry a folder, the Delica is very hard to beat. In every lock abuse test I've ever seen, it beats out knives that are substantially heavier, larger, and more expensive. Another bonus is that Spyderco produces a trainer for the Delica, so you can actually practice with your exact knife.

[BillSWPA]

I still think this is very good advice. If you have to carry a folder, the Delica is very hard to beat. In every lock abuse test I've ever seen, it beats out knives that are substantially heavier, larger, and more expensive. Another bonus is that Spyderco produces a trainer for the Delica, so you can actually practice with your exact knife.

I particularly like the waved Delica because:

1). With a 2.9 inch blade, there are very few places I can’t carry it legally.

2). The grip fits my hand better than an Endura grip.

3). I have not come across a single folder that I can get open and in my hand as quickly and dependably as the waved Spyderco knives. The Spyderco version of the wave is orders of magnitude better than other versions. It is very noticeably faster than thumb opening, but the thumb hole is very well set up if I need to use it for any reason.

4). Unlike assisted opening, wave opening does not appear to come with any legal question marks in most places.

5) I have seen liner locks fail but not a rocker bar lock.

6) Since it is not designed for fighting, other legal question marks are removed.

7) With the tip-up blade against the back of my front pocket, there is zero chance of accidentally opening the knife, and either putting a hole in clothing or cutting myself while reaching in the pocket. I have done both with tip down carry.

8). It is relatively discreet when clipped to the top of a pocket. While I would not call it concealed, it avoids raising any eyebrows.



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[Cool Breeze]

For a sub 3 inch folder it is hard to come up with anything better than a Delica for a "fighting" knife. Handle is very ergonomic and the thumb ramp and jimping are vastly better than the endura. I don't have any experience with the wave version but it also opens faster than an endura (at least for me) due to the balance of the blade. If I was going to go endura-like length (at the same-ish price), I would skip to the stretch with its faster deployment and better shaped handle.

If I wanted to go slightly higher end and/or more traction with g-10 handles.... The paramilitary 2 is my all time favorite folder. Super fast, super strong, better grip, and better steal. The para 3 looks interesting if I needed a smaller version but I don't have experience with it yet.

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[BillSWPA]

While the benefits of a longer blade are obvious, I consider it secondary to other factors. In a non-wave-opening knife depending on a thumb hole, thumb stud, or disk, the positioning of the hole, stud, etc. on the blade relative to both the hand and to the pivot are critical for ease of opening the knife. For my medium sized hands, I find that a 3.5 inch blade is about perfect for consistent, reliable thumb opening, with a Benchmade Griptillian being a good example of ideal ergonomics. A 3 inch Mini-Griptillian and non-waved Spyderco Delica are very close seconds, and I believe the Cold Steel American Lawman is also very close to ideal for consistent, easy opening. For me, blades that approach 4 inches tend to place my hand in a less than ideal position to consistently and reliably engage the thumb-opening feature of hte blade. I am definitely more fumble prone with my 4" Cold Steel Recon 1 than with any of the above-mentioned knives.

[Cool Breeze]

While the benefits of a longer blade are obvious, I consider it secondary to other factors. In a non-wave-opening knife depending on a thumb hole, thumb stud, or disk, the positioning of the hole, stud, etc. on the blade relative to both the hand and to the pivot are critical for ease of opening the knife. For my medium sized hands, I find that a 3.5 inch blade is about perfect for consistent, reliable thumb opening, with a Benchmade Griptillian being a good example of ideal ergonomics. A 3 inch Mini-Griptillian and non-waved Spyderco Delica are very close seconds, and I believe the Cold Steel American Lawman is also very close to ideal for consistent, easy opening. For me, blades that approach 4 inches tend to place my hand in a less than ideal position to consistently and reliably engage the thumb-opening feature of hte blade. I am definitely more fumble prone with my 4" Cold Steel Recon 1 than with any of the above-mentioned knives.

Interesting. I never really thought of it as hand position... I thought of it more as length/balance of blade relative to pivot point and deployment style. That being said I agree with you and even before that I have come to the same conclusion.

Benchmade griptillian and my 940 osbourne are the fastest/easiest non-spring assisted manual folders I have experienced. It's the only knife I have flicked open that needs no wrist flick and can be opened with the position of the knife perfectly perpendicular to the ground. Though I don't think the design or the material has enough traction to consider them a viable fighting option.

With my cold steel recon 1, I have yet to be able to open consistently. It always opens like a half and inch and then the weight and/or the detent springs it back shut. The thumb positioning is awful too. That being said, once open it is a bad a** knife. When open, the handle and blade design are nice. The handle also has the most aggressive g-10 of any folder I have touched. The knife doesn't move in your hand.

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[JodyH]

After I witnessed that in training, we were taught that going for a weapon while being dominated was the mistake

That it is.
"Position before submission" is a cardinal rule of grappling for a reason.

[Cool Breeze]

Has anyone who carries waved knives had any accidental deployments in their pocket? I've been thinking about either getting a dedicated wave knife or adding zip ties to a spidey hole.

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