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Thread: The truth about pocket folders as defensive tools?

  1. #1
    Member StraitR's Avatar
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    Question The truth about pocket folders as defensive tools?

    A search of PF turned up several threads about folders and/or defensive knives, but nothing on the specific application of folders as defensive knives, and outside of a post or two in those threads, nothing with any detail.

    Admittedly, I've been a knife nut since I was a child. I have more than a few blades in the safe, ranging from little gas station knives received as well intentioned gifts up to CRK Sebenza's and Busse fixed blades. That said, lately I've been pondering why, aside from simple enjoyment, I carry a large(ish) folder when 9/10 times I reach past it for the SAK Cadet at the bottom of my pocket when things need cutting. So I thought about reversing some pocket clips and and putting them on my support side for a defensive tool. Then it dawned on me, I don't know the first thing about defensive knife use aside from what my lizard brain tells me and whether or not the folding blade I EDC everyday is anything more than pocket jewelry.

    Given the amount of edged weapon SME's, official and unofficial, as well as the experienced membership here on PF to leverage both knowledge and experience from, can we lay out the truth on deploying folders as defensive tools?


    Here are some of the questions I've been attempting to find answers to as they pertain to a defensive pocket folder. For an EDC blade, I have my own preferences, but they may or may not apply to a defensive folder. Feel free to copy/paste as a Q&A format if you feel like tackling them.

    - Are folders a feasible defensive option one can train and become proficient with, or is this just something people like to talk about online?

    - If so, are there notable trainers doing classes geared specifically for folders? I really want to take EWO, bad. Ok, really bad.

    - How about blade specifics for the role?
    -blade styles and their pros/cons
    -blade length, is there a minimum

    - What about deployment methods? Auto, Assisted, Waved, Flippers, Manual? Thumb disc vs stud vs hole?

    - Locking mechanisms, important? Liner, Axis, Frame lock, Compression?

    - Blade steel, does it matter?

    - How is a defensive folder best carried? Strong side, support side, other?

    - Brand/Model preferences? Who's carrying what, where, and why?

    - Do you have firsthand experience deploying a folder in a defensive role? Are you willing to share?

    - Did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night?

  2. #2
    I'm not an SME. I have a bit of blade training. I do know quite a lot about knife design and materials. I'll throw what opinion/knowledge I feel comfy with backing.

    Quote Originally Posted by StraitR View Post

    - Are folders a feasible defensive option one can train and become proficient with, or is this just something people like to talk about online?

    Feasible: yes. As good as a fixed blade: hells no.
    Mostly people talk about it, but you can train to get a folder into play almost as fast as a fixed blade. It'll never be as reliable, though.

    - How about blade specifics for the role?
    -blade styles and their pros/cons
    -blade length, is there a minimum

    Pointy. I think the main draw to having a folder for a weapon is the ability to carry a longer blade more conveniently than the same sized fixed blade.

    - What about deployment methods? Auto, Assisted, Waved, Flippers, Manual? Thumb disc vs stud vs hole?

    I like waved, hole, disk in that order. Holes and disks are easier to use with gloves on than other methods. Autos, assist and flippers tend to have more parts to fail and aren't actually any faster.

    - Locking mechanisms, important? Liner, Axis, Frame lock, Compression?

    To a degree. A well made knife will stay locked for any reasonable task. Lockbacks are reliably the sturdiest overall. I'd say that the compression lock has a lot going for it as well. Overall this is mostly personal preference as long as you are buying above the budget level. I've seen them all fail under enough abuse, aside from the lockback. I haven't seen the lock fail in one, I have seen a knife fail around the lockback.

    - Blade steel, does it matter?

    If it is just for defense, not really. As long as it can take an edge, your blade shape and geometry will matter much more. There is nothing wrong with a 440 blade if it's got a good heat treatment.

    - How is a defensive folder best carried? Strong side, support side, other?

    I like support side if it's a secondary arm. Some can make centerline work, but I don't like it for a folder.

    - Brand/Model preferences? Who's carrying what, where, and why?

    I really like the waved Spydercos.



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  3. #3
    Gray Hobbyist Wondering Beard's Avatar
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    Well, didn't you just go and pick a subject matter close to: what's the best gun for home defense?

    I'm no expert, guru, SME or anything of that type, I'm just a guy who really likes knives and has trained to use them defensively and before my preference for fixed blades, carried folders. I'm really looking forward to what those much more experienced than I have to say.


    - Are folders a feasible defensive option one can train and become proficient with, or is this just something people like to talk about online? Yes

    - If so, are there notable trainers doing classes geared specifically for folders? I really want to take EWO, bad. Ok, really bad. Yes. I don't know if EWO focuses specifically on folders but what you would get out of EWO class will still be valid. A favorite of mine is John Holshen at Insights : Defensive Folding knife and Defensive Folding Knife II

    - How about blade specifics for the role?
    -blade styles and their pros/cons so many blade styles, so many opinions, so little time. Personally, I want it to pierce with ease and have some curvature to the edge for easy cutting. How it does it, is something that can get you the same acrimony as 9mm vs 45 ACP
    -blade length, is there a minimum no, but your local laws may have a maximum

    - What about deployment methods? Auto, Assisted, Waved, Flippers, Manual? Thumb disc vs stud vs hole? Again, lots of differing opinions on this. Personally, I don't think autos bring anything extra to the table and add reliability concerns. Assisted required me to rework my technique to avoid getting cut and I didn't feel there was much of a benefit. I don't really understand flippers but a lot of people like them. I like Manual, preferably with an Emerson style 'wave'; it's not 100% but if it fails I can still go back to my usual manual technique or just flick my wrist to finish the job. I don't like studs that much because they're easy to miss when deploying the knife at speed, wide discs or variations on that are better; I think holes are best but Ernie Emerson thinks discs are better so what do I know :-)

    - Locking mechanisms, important? Liner, Axis, Frame lock, Compression? Only important insofar as it remains strong. All locks can and do fail and a badly executed one of whatever style is terrible. The thing that matters to me is that none of my fingers get into a position to unlock the knife while I'm rolling around with a bad guy who wants to do me in

    - Blade steel, does it matter? around the net you have discussions on steels that will make our own press out vs whatever type of draw seem like a genteel discussion at a posh London club. so long as you have a quality knife maker, you will have a good, properly tempered blade; it may not be the latest hi tech steel but it will do its job

    - How is a defensive folder best carried? Strong side, support side, other?Up to you; so long as it's easily accessible when you're rolling around on the ground or getting slammed against a wall, it will work. When I carried folders, I had at least two, so that either of my hands could get to a knife no matter what (doesn't just apply to fights, it can also apply to cutting rope while holding heavy furniture, or getting entangled in a boat's ropes); I still carry two but one is a fixed blade now

    - Brand/Model preferences? Who's carrying what, where, and why? Reputable companies before small custom shops, in the same way we go with well known companies when purchasing ammo. I like Emersons a lot but I won't "die in the streetz if I carried a Spyderco Delica

    - Do you have firsthand experience deploying a folder in a defensive role? Are you willing to share? None came to actual fights (thank God) but appearing unarmed and suddenly appearing armed helped nicely once. Southnarc has probably lots of stories

    - Did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night? almost, but my house was closer

  4. #4
    While there is extensive information regarding your questions, the simple answer is that a fixed blade is far superior to a folder in every way other than concealment. If you can comfortably conceal a small fixed blade, you will be way better off.
    If you absolutely have to carry a folder for some reason, a Spyderco Delica (waved or not) is hard to beat.

  5. #5
    Member StraitR's Avatar
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    I had a blurb about not wanting to get into fixed blades vs folders in my original post, as that's not the point of my questioning, but I took it out. So, I agree, there's no debating the fact that a fixed blade is more capable and generally preferable for the role, but it's not always feasible to carry one.

    So far, it seems the idea of a defensive folder has at least some merit, so thanks for the replies guys. I really hope more people join the discussion, SME or not, and that Craig and Nyeti stop by and give their suggestive input.

    Wondering Beard, thanks for the info on the Holshen material, I'm definitely going to check them out.

  6. #6
    Site Supporter Maple Syrup Actual's Avatar
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    - Are folders a feasible defensive option one can train and become proficient with, or is this just something people like to talk about online?
    Sure,why not? You better believe if someone is beating me senseless and I can grab a rock or a sharp stick or a paint can, I'm using it. Why not a sharp piece of steel with a handle? That would be way better.

    - If so, are there notable trainers doing classes geared specifically for folders? I really want to take EWO, bad. Ok, really bad.
    EWO is pretty great although I don't have much to compare it to but a few FMA sessions with a friend (who is a legit instructor but still)

    - How about blade specifics for the role?
    I like medium-sized folders that I'm sure I can open while reeling. My rule: if I can't reliably do it while completely wasted, I probably couldn't do it while fighting off a hard bell-ring.

    -blade styles and their pros/cons
    As long as I can hang on to it, sharpen it, and it's pretty straight, I don't care too much. It's got to stab well.

    -blade length, is there a minimum
    I wouldn't go much under two inches, personally.

    - What about deployment methods? Auto, Assisted, Waved, Flippers, Manual? Thumb disc vs stud vs hole?
    I like waved. I don't have any experience with autos. I don't like flippers for fighting. I want to get as close as I can to my fist grip the second I grab the knife.

    I prefer holes to discs and discs to studs but right now I carry a disc-wave knife and it's fine.

    - Locking mechanisms, important? Liner, Axis, Frame lock, Compression?
    As long as it's totally secure, even when twisting the blade, I don't care.

    - Blade steel, does it matter?
    No

    - How is a defensive folder best carried? Strong side, support side, other?
    I think that would totally depend on you...mine goes on the strong side front pocket because that's where I carry a knife and I use a knife a dozen times a day.

    - Brand/Model preferences? Who's carrying what, where, and why?
    I'm carrying a Kershaw Emerson because it was cheap, on sale and met my basic needs. I've also carried Spydercos a lot. I'm totally fine with delicas and enduras. I'm not picky. It's a sharp chunk of steel I'm going to ram into somebody a bunch of times if I have to. I don't like to overthink it.

    - Do you have firsthand experience deploying a folder in a defensive role? Are you willing to share?
    No, although I do have experience going for training versions while getting beat up in EWO etc. My advice is "carry a knife you'll use all the time" because if you draw it over and over, you'll know right where it is and how to get to it.

    - Did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night?
    No, I stay in way scummier motels than that. If it's more than $40, I feel out of place.
    This is a thread where I built a boat I designed and which I very occasionally update with accounts of using it, which is really fun as long as I'm not driving over logs and blowing up the outboard.
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ilding-a-skiff

  7. #7
    Member StraitR's Avatar
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    Great insight Misanthropist. Seems to validate a lot of my assumptions.

  8. #8
    Chasing the Horizon RJ's Avatar
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    Great thread. Following.

    I carry a mini-Grip so I have a sharp pointy thing. Very interested in whether this is a good idea or not for defensive purposes over say, my mini 4 blade SAK.
    Last edited by RJ; 11-10-2015 at 10:57 PM.

  9. #9
    Site Supporter Maple Syrup Actual's Avatar
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    Well, I don't know that anyone should feel good about having their beliefs validated through agreement with me, but I will say that in Canada, we don't carry guns much. I have been carrying a folding (or fixed or both) knife every day since about 1985, though, and I do tons and tons of work with knives, which is almost never opening boxes. It's way more likely to be actual knife work, in which I am trimming or shaving or slicing actual material, not just poking a hole in packing tape.

    Back when I worked as a framing carpenter I could notch out 2x4s for simple scaffolding with a heavy chopping knife faster than I could consistently, safely do it with a circular saw. And I grew up with an actual crazy bushman/genuine pick-and-pan prospector for a dad, who used an axe puck worn down to a nub to keep mora knives sharp enough to do surgery with...not a joke and I say this from experience.

    So I'd guess that I've got more time in on knives than most people who aren't woodworkers. They're simple machines in my opinion and short of going to a really purpose-specific item like a clinch pick (which I do also carry a lot of the time) I think a lot of the obvious stuff works really, really well.
    This is a thread where I built a boat I designed and which I very occasionally update with accounts of using it, which is really fun as long as I'm not driving over logs and blowing up the outboard.
    https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....ilding-a-skiff

  10. #10
    Member StraitR's Avatar
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    One thing I'm trying to figure out is how to deploy a knife with the wave feature more effectively. My plight, which I notice in every video of someone demonstrating the deployment of a waved knife, is that I end up with a poor grip that needs substantial readjustment. After the knife clears the pocked, fully locked open, what I'm left with is two fingers and thumb on the knife. So, I know it's fast into action, but what am I missing when it comes to getting it out of my pocket with a usable grip?

    For reference, I have three waved knives to use. Two Emersons and a Delica.

    Also, lot's of people seem to like pointy, which was also referenced by Nyeti (sharpened screwdrivers) as highly effective in another thread. So, what constitutes pointy? For the sake of comparison, let's use Emerson knives, as they run the gamut on blade shapes.

    Commander - not very pointy?
    Gentlemen Jim and Bandito bot seem extremely pointy.
    CQC-7 - pointy?
    CQC-8 - pointy enough?
    other examples, Emerson or otherwise?

    ETA: In contrast, I have a ZT0561 that I can remove from my pocket and deploy with the flipper while getting a usable grip seemingly quicker than any of my waved knives. I see so many people endorse the wave feature that I must be going wrong somewhere.
    Last edited by StraitR; 11-10-2015 at 11:38 PM.

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