LE Knife

[TGS]

Had a very, very senior hard-charging, no shit skull crushing colleague known to 2 other P-F.com members the other day who was AIWB'ing a folder. This started a conversation among some of my other colleagues, including the following statement from an 8 or 9 year LE veteran:

There is zero reason for any knife in law enforcement. You're asking to just get thrown in jail given your agency has not trained or qualified you on it.

Discuss.

[Lon]

Stupid comment on his part. There is a place for knives in LE. Not as a primary weapon, but as a tool and in an emergency, a weapon. By his reasoning, any impromptu weapon I use to defend myself is going to land me in jail because I didn't get training on it? Really? He clearly doesn't understand the laws regarding use of force and self defense.

[Totem Polar]

I'm not LE, never was. But I never cease to be amazed at how many people there out there who dislike knives and fail to realize how useful a tool--one that literally predates the human race--can be. Same 'bird probably opens his bags of chips with his teeth; cardboard boxes with his keys. [rolleyesaroundandaround]

[TC215]

NASHVILLE, Tenn. - A metro police officer was using the restroom Friday morning when a man tried to steal his gun. What happened next seems like a scene straight out of a movie. But it's real life, and it happened right next to the downtown library on Fifth Avenue and Church Street.

Downtown Nashville in the daytime is generally safe. So it seemed more than strange when a police officer and a homeless man somehow ended up involved in a stabbing well before noon.

""This is his situation. He's gone into the restroom. He is in his bicycle gear, shorts and his black shirt, that plainly say metro police on it, wearing a gun belt," said Don Aaron with metro police.

A man followed 23-year metro police veteran Marty Crowder into a small bathroom with only one urinal and one stall.

Police said the man locked the door and started approaching Crowder. James Collier, 43, then reached for the police officer's gun according to police. Police said they fought for a bit, before the officer pulled a knife from his bulletproof vest and stabbed Collier in the leg.

"He did the only thing he knew to do, which was to use the other weapon - a knife - and he managed to stab the guy in the upper left leg to back him away," said Aaron.

"There's not really much he could do from the perspective of watching his back at the urinal because there's not much you can do," said Callahan.

Police say they are taught to do whatever it takes to protect their gun. In this case, officer Crowder just happened to have a knife...but it is not a required part of police paraphernalia.

"A knife can come in handy in police work in a variety of situations," said Aaron.

The homeless man is someone police have seen wandering the streets for several months. But he has no other charges in Nashville. And police said he has never caused trouble until today.

"They attempted to speak with him. The suspect refused to speak," said Aaron.

The homeless man is in stable condition at Vanderbilt hospital. And after being treated for some cuts the officer is at home. The homeless man has not yet been charged, but police said he will be once he is released from the hospital.

[pablo]

For starters he's a dumbass that doesn't know the difference from criminal and civil liability.

You can be held criminally liable for using a knife on someone when deadly force was not justified. The standard disclaimer that you can hung up for using any type of force when justified still applies.

You can be held civilly liable for using a knife when you are forbidden to carry one by policy, carry one that is not approved, or you were not justified in using deadly force.

Your agency will eat the liability for not training or qualifying you on a knife.

[Pup town]

Just like barrack lawyers in the military, there are plenty of locker room lawyers (not sure if there's a better term already in usage) in LE. I wouldn't take legal advice from either.

I know LEOs that are convinced the department/bureau/agency will jam you up for this or for that action. (Leads to me to scratch my head, because I always think "Well, if this is so wrong you'd think they'd have told us at the academy or at one of the use of force/legal refreshers, or it would be expressly prohibited in the manual somewhere.) If you ask for a specific case of an officer getting jammed up for that particular thing, they can't come up with one or they'll cite a vague reference to it happening to a friend of a friend at a different agency.

[Hauptmann]

I'm not trained to use my patrol vehicle as a deadly force weapon.....nor a rock, a metal pipe,.....etc. Yet all may be justifiably used in a deadly force situation. The same applies to a knife.

I'd be more worried about cutting myself in the process.

[Lon]

You can be held civilly liable for using a knife when you are forbidden to carry one by policy, carry one that is not approved, or you were not justified in using deadly force.

Your agency will eat the liability for not training or qualifying you on a knife.

I agree you can be held liable for the bold part. Not sure I agree on the rest. I'd love to see a case cite where that's addressed.

[Dagga Boy]

Having wrote a nationally recognized edged weapons program for my agency......it is something that should be addressed. An agency is helping both itself and its officers by providing training on the use of a knife for both utility and rescue work, as well as a last ditch or in extremis weapon. As stated earlier, criminally it is pretty simple....was lethal force justified or not, period. On the Civil liability side, the complexities begin and the easiest ways for agencies to protect themselves and officers is with good very open policy (restrictive policies get you sued and induce liability) and more importantly, training. My agency also issued Emerson PSark knives to every officer with training. It was a very successful program, including two very well done rescues using the knives and techniques taught in training the first week they were issued.

[john c]

Nyeti;

I'm interested in learning more about the knife training program you wrote. Do you have a link or info you can share?

Thanks,

-John