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Thread: Class review -- Gunsite, Advanced Tactical Problems (pistol)

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Clobbersaurus's Avatar
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    Good review, interested to read day three.

  2. #12
    TD3

    We started with some shooting at 15, 25 and 50 yards on the square range. Ron commented that they frequently observe students having trouble at 25, and especially 50 yards, with HD/Ameriglo style large front sights. I was still shooting my Glock 17 from the night before, as I wanted to use that holster for the simunition pistol. After my classmates left, Cory and I did draws to the steel at 50, followed by support hand only at 50. My 17 and HD sights worked fine.

    Then it was off to a series of four force on force drills. Despite having about 800 hours of level D jet simulator time in my log book, I was feeling anxious, as it has been a while since I did force on force drills, and the only time involving a simunition gun was at NTI back at Gunsite eons ago. The lead up only intensified the experience -- safety briefing, remove all weapon like things, pat down, wand with a metal detector and segregation with a watcher to make sure we stayed un-weaponized. It continued when putting on the groin protector, heavy jacket, gloves and head/neck protector. Left over moisture from the prior days' weather gave all of us moisture and fogging in our goggles. We were told that if we successfully solved the problem, shooting might not be necessary, and at anytime if anyone involved said "marshmallow," the scenario was over. We were also given instructions to not intentionally shoot anyone in the face. Good news -- for a while, simunition rounds were unavailable, and they had to use an alternative, name escaping me, that really broke skin. I was also told Gunsite has a no flash bang rule after a SEAL team came through, and flash banged a number of the Gunsite staff role players.

    FOF #1:

    I was led over to an indoor simulator by Ron, and briefed that I was going in to buy a Powerball ticket in a convenience store in a bad part of town. I approached the counter, and the store clerk, noting a shady looking guy about 110 degrees to my right and behind me. Then I felt a big shove, and a gunman had run in the door from behind me, pointed a gun at the clerk, and announced it was a robbery. I backed to my left towards cover, put my hand on my sim gun, and tried to figure out who was who, what to do, and what my authority to do something was. I was weighing my legal or practical standing to shoot someone that was likely just robbing a store, what my responsibility would be if my intervention caused the clerk to be shot, and what the other guy was up to. I figured I needed to do something, so I drew and told the robber to freeze, and then drop the gun, all the while eye sprinting between the robber and the other guy. The bad guy dropped his gun on the counter. Then he started talking to me, and at the same time went for his gun. I shot him two or three times, but in the process he wracked off two shots, one of which hit at the junction of my groin protector and Safariland holster. As he literally grabbed and hail mary'd the shots, it reinforced the lesson that distance is your friend.

    In the debrief, it was clear that I had missed my chance to go out the front door while the robber had his back to me, and that I was the reactor and not the actor. I was also told if I took my eyes off the other guy in the store, he would have joined the fight against me. A fellow student shot the bad guy, and in not promptly depressing his muzzle to a low ready, and scanning, lost eyes on the other guy who promptly shot him. My take away was that a decent plan quickly executed may well beat a phenomenal plan that takes time to formulate and execute.

    FOF #2:

    Next scenario was to go to lunch at a restaurant. I entered the structure, noted several others inside, and picked a seat with good visibility, minimal six o'clock exposure, and access to two exits. Interestingly, I felt calm. It was almost like one scenario filled in my fear of the unknown and allowed me to then draw on my years of simulator experience in the jet. Flight scenarios are very realistic, with one big exception, and that is a bad outcome in the sim is unlike to lead to death. That difference, in my experience, completely changes the pucker factor. You may be embarrassed, criticized, sweat, and on and on, but you will still be alive afterwards. Perhaps a gamer at heart, I also decided if I was about to be shot, I would yell "popcorn," (marshmallow was the actual surrender word) and see if that diversion would confuse my attacker.

    As I was deciding what to have to eat, a scruffy guy barged in the front door of the restaurant, and grabbed someone. I started to try to figure out what was going down, stopped myself, and bolted while I had a chance. Out the door I went, and the scenario was over. No idea who was the good guy, who was the bad guy, what I should do, if at all to intervene, but I called 911 from outside and let them sort it out. Turns out the intruder shot the person inside, but I didn't hear that in their struggle.

    FOF #3:

    I was to exit the restaurant, get in my car, and drive away. My car was a white mini-van with tinted windows, that blocked my vision into the vehicle. As I approached the driver's door, I decided to check the sliding door to see if it was locked. As it wasn't, I pulled it open quickly, and sure enough a bad guy was crouched back to me with a big knife, ready to ambush the driver. I quickly drew my pistol, muzzle averted, poked my left index finger into his back, which caused him to yell "marshmallow." It was funny that he surrendered to my index finger, but he didn't want to be shot with a bunch of sim rounds at one foot. Turns out my classmates got to figure out what to do with a knife at their throat, from sitting in the driver's seat.

    FOF #4:

    This scenario was following a hiking trail, which I was looking forward to, as it would be like the donga but with thinking, moving adversaries. I sure was hoping to get to do some shooting, with or without "popcorn." As I went down the trail, two hikers passed me going the opposite direction without a problem. Around a corner, I came upon a guy sprawled on the ground, saying "help me." I stopped about thirty feet away, determined he was breathing, there were no puddles of blood, and stayed back while I called an ambulance. Turns out he had a large knife in his hand, hidden from my view.

    I hope these scenarios lead to some discussion about the value of force on force generally, what I did, and how force on force compares to and differs from real life.

    Next it was lunch time, and back to a range for an afternoon of challenging steel shooting. I was pretty happy as I was mostly one for one on steel, except on the runs I intentionally tried to burn down, and to which I announced in advance. It was interesting to see how others tried to balance speed and accuracy on difficult steel. On any drill involving difficult steel and transitions, I was significantly faster. However, on drills like a close draw to one large steel, or shooting that didn't involve transitions, the guy with the best grip, reaction to the timer, or maybe that was just lucky, won.

    Next it was back to the classroom for closing remarks from Ken Campbell, COO of Gunsite, and then Cory and Ron. While the weather wasn't what I hoped for in October in Arizona, we had a great bunch of students, thoughtful instructors, and a superb facility to train on. Can't wait to get back there!
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  3. #13
    Fred, no pictures, as I was solo, and our small class size and pace didn't lend itself to taking pictures.

    JHC, problems with both 1911 pistols. One had hammer follow, plus I think some stoppages. The other was choking. He was using Wolf ammo for at least part of the time, and I am not sure whether that contributed to his problems. He got really good at type three malfunction clearances. I feel like you really need to believe in the superiority of the 1911, .45 or both, to carry a heavy, low capacity pistol, that requires a higher level of competency to build nod maintain.

    MVS, if you get the chance, I strongly recommend Gunsite. Tremendous facility, great folks, and next year is their 40th continuous year of operation. I believe Gunsite is the longest running firearms school in the US. They are also becoming more agnostic about some core doctrine, like the Modern Technique, as they evolve. They have many interesting specialty courses.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  4. #14
    Hokey / Ancient JAD's Avatar
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    Class review -- Gunsite, Advanced Tactical Problems (pistol)

    GJM, have you been exposed in depth to John Hearne's thinking on removing novelty? Not a setup, just seeing whether we have that for common context in the discussion.
    Last edited by JAD; 10-10-2015 at 11:44 AM.
    Ignore Alien Orders

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I hope these scenarios lead to some discussion about the value of force on force generally, what I did, and how force on force compares to and differs from real life.
    While I haven't done a ton of force on force, what I have done has shown me a couple of things:

    1. Being explosive is very helpful, be it explosively moving towards an exit or drawing very quickly while the attacker(s) is distracted can make or break the outcome of the situation. More often than not, it is better to get out of the situation, as you noted with it taking too much time to figure out the nuances. The FoF training I have done wasn't geared towards CCW in the US, so the options available and subsequent ramifications of my actions were slightly different.

    2. It showed me the value of having really good SA and the need to come to terms with what I am willing to do, or not do, in a given situation prior to actually being involved. Trying to figure out what to do while the situation is happening means you have already failed.

    While FoF is very valuable to simulate real life, one of the pitfalls is gaming the scenario - namely, you (general you, no one specifically) might do things in FoF that you wouldn't do in real life since you don't actually die in FoF (as someone who tries to game everything for an advantage, I try to make sure I don't do this). Keeping that in mind, you can learn quite a bit about what to work on both at the range and with regards to mental preparation and stress innoculation.

    With regards to how you did, I think you made the right decisions in scenarios 2-4, and learned a valuable lesson in scenario 1. Namely, that weighing your legal and practical standing to shoot someone while the robbery is in progress is a distraction that you can't afford to have. You did have good SA, by trying to keep eyes on both the guy with the gun and the suspicious looking dude at the other end of the store.

    This is why FoF is invaluable training, if done correctly, because it can open your eyes to things you may not have considered before (not saying you haven't considered this stuff). It also shows that awareness is very important and that all of the square range training/practice makes up a very small part in dealing with these types of situations.

    The best thing about FoF training, IMO, is the ability to expose ourselves to different situations and make mistakes in training instead of real life.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by JAD View Post
    GJM, have you been exposed in depth to John Hearne's thinking on removing novelty? Not a setup, just seeing whether we have that for common context in the discussion.
    Now I know what Sarah Palin felt like, when Charles Gibson asked her about the Bush doctrine.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  7. #17
    Hokey / Ancient JAD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Now I know what Sarah Palin felt like, when Charles Gibson asked her about the Bush doctrine.
    Sarah Palin is pretty and from Alaska. You're from Alaska, so halfway there.

    A) I buy what Hearne's selling.
    B) it is well worth attending an in-depth lecture. I got eight or ten hours of it and it could have been twenty four.
    C) it's awesome context for discussion of FoF.
    D) don't sweat it, you're intensely knowledgeable on the subject. The vocabulary would have been convenient.
    Ignore Alien Orders

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by JAD View Post
    Sarah Palin is pretty and from Alaska. You're from Alaska, so halfway there.

    A) I buy what Hearne's selling.
    B) it is well worth attending an in-depth lecture. I got eight or ten hours of it and it could have been twenty four.
    C) it's awesome context for discussion of FoF.
    D) don't sweat it, you're intensely knowledgeable on the subject. The vocabulary would have been convenient.
    Can you post a link -- if not, can you summarize the salient points?
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  9. #19
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    FWIW, Ballistic Radio had an interview with John Hearne on Aug 16th where he discussed some of this. I would love to hear the lecture.

  10. #20
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    George - If I'd have known you were coming in I would have stuck around. Am glad you enjoyed the three days. I really like that you noticed and acknowledged the software upgrades going on. Thank you for the quality AAR.

    The FoF stuff for decent, normal humans runs differently from those who have an expectation of, or obligation to, getting involved. It has been interesting addressing the Be A Good Witness concept when teaching off-duty stuff.

    Ron and I had talked at length the week before about things we were seeing during pre-engagement / assessment sequences.

    If the Hearne material being referenced is what he presented at the Rangemaster conference back in February, it would be well worth your time George.

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