Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 25

Thread: Class review -- Gunsite, Advanced Tactical Problems (pistol)

  1. #1

    Class review -- Gunsite, Advanced Tactical Problems (pistol)

    I just finished up Gunsite's handgun Advanced Tactical Problems (ATP) class this week, at the Gunsite facility in Paulden, Arizona. There is enough that I want to say about the class, that I may break it up into different posts.

    My wife and I first attended Gunsite in 1991, when we took API 270, their rifle class, in preparation for our honeymoon hunting trip to Botswana. Jeff Cooper was the instructor. Since then, we have taken many classes at Gunsite, and been friends with many Gunsite people. It has been about five years since I last took a class there. The Gunsite facility is world class, consisting of approximately 2,500 acres, scattered across the piñon-juniper terrain of northern Arizona. They have many indoor shoot houses, outdoor simulators, square ranges, rifle ranges to 2,000 yards, and almost everything imaginable to train on.

    Gunsite's pistol offerings are, in order, 250, 350, 499 and ATP. ATP is three days, and their most advanced pistol offering. TD1 is a square range refresher in the morning, and both indoor and outdoor simulators in the afternoon. TD2 is about an hour of square range, followed by the rest of the day in simulators. TD2 includes a night shoot, conducted in the indoor and outdoor simulators. TD3 has force on force for part of the day, some square range work, and then various competitions on steel. We shot about 1,000 rounds of ball and about 250 rounds of frangible over the three days.

    Our instructors were Cory Trapp and Ron Fielder. I have known Cory for nearly twenty years, and consider him a friend and resource. This is the first time I met Ron, but we share a mutual friend in Randy Cain. Ron is very knowledgeable and calm. Cory and Ron complemented each other very well. Due to some cancellations, there were six of us in class, which was awesome in terms of the flow through the simulators. Everyone attending could shoot, and backgrounds included military, LE, district attorney's office, and me. I think, given the choice, the Gunsite staff would rather have had my wife attend, as they like her. They made that clear by periodically calling me by her name during the week.

    Wide range of pistols from the 1911, M&P, Glock, XDM and me mostly with a Beretta Brig Tac. I had exactly one stoppage during the course, and it was with a frangible round in a simulator. I think all the students had some stoppages with frangible ammo, and it is consider par for the course with frangible. The only persistent stoppages I saw other than with frangible were with the 1911 shooter. Both his pistols, one was a TRP and I believe the other was a Colt, had issues. Particularly concerning was his Colt carry 1911, as it is on his CA CCW, and it is apparently very hard to change to another gun.

    I really enjoyed the course, seeing old friends, spending time at Gunsite, and look forward to returning soon. I am going to start with my suggestions for how Gunsite can improve this class, all of which I shared with my friend, Ken Campbell, the COO at Gunsite.

    1) I would like to see an update of the technical shooting curriculum. It is fundamentally what was taught in my 250 class in 90's. I think it is possible to update the technical shooting curriculum while staying true to Gunsite's philosophy as a fighting school.

    2) I would like to see more instructor demo's. Leatham, Bragg, Rogers, Langdon, Green - they all demo a lot and that is very helpful.

    3) I think there was too much emphasis on 3 and 5 yard shooting for an Advanced class.

    4) Gunsite is philosophically an open carry place, and has been for decades. Instructors and students open carry. However, OWB in a Blade Tech isn't real world, and especially when combined with fast 3-5 yard shooting, is not realistic. While students can shoot concealed, it isn't likely to happen if students on the line next to them shoot open, as the concealed guys will likely lag on drills. I think all or part of the course should be shot concealed by instructors and students.

    5) The Gunsite standard paper target has an appropriate upper A section in the head box, but an eight inch circle in the main part of the target. However, the instructors wanted you to shoot the upper half of the eight inch circle. I would like to see a target that is more along the dimensions John Hearne advocates.

    I plan to post additional sections focusing on the simulators and force on force exercises in the course, all of which I enjoyed a lot! I have had several discussions with Mr_White on the force on force, and hope that stimulates some discussion about force on force generally.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  2. #2
    Member JHC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Georgia
    The fellow with his Colt 1911 issues, were they reloads?

    I'm really anxious to hear details on the simulator work.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  3. #3
    Member MVS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    MI
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    I just finished up Gunsite's handgun Advanced Tactical Problems (ATP) class this week, at the Gunsite facility in Paulden, Arizona. There is enough that I want to say about the class, that I may break it up into different posts.

    .
    .

    .

    4) Gunsite is philosophically an open carry place, and has been for decades. Instructors and students open carry. However, OWB in a Blade Tech isn't real world, and especially when combined with fast 3-5 yard shooting, is not realistic. While students can shoot concealed, it isn't likely to happen if students on the line next to them shoot open, as the concealed guys will likely lag on drills. I think all or part of the course should be shot concealed by instructors and students.

    ..
    I have shot concealed in many classes were most of the people were open carrying and did not feel disadvantaged, I deo however get and agree with your point.

    Thanks for the review. I have been to close to 50 firearms related classes so far, but have yet to make it to Gunsite so I enjoy reading what it is all about.

  4. #4
    Looking forward to your updates and the discussion GJM.

  5. #5
    Dot Driver Kyle Reese's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Central Virginia
    Pics aren't loading.

  6. #6
    Hokey / Ancient JAD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Kansas City
    I haven't been since '97. I'm glad to hear that it's still a good experience, and there are some great people there.
    Ignore Alien Orders

  7. #7
    TD1 started off with a very brief lecture, signing of releases, and off to the square range for some warm-up. Interestingly, in the brief lecture, our instructors (Cory carried a 1911 in .45 and Ron a G19) opined that there were not meaningful differences in the common service pistol calibers, that pistol rounds generally were not all that effective, and to expect to need a number of shots to get the job done. That in itself was a massive departure from the Jeff Coper days when I started attending Gunsite.

    Right off, cold, we were put on the 3 yard range, where Cory ran pneumatic turning targets. They turned and disappeared very fast. I believe their exposure was one second, and you were expected to start hands up in a defensive posture, and take a big step "off line" as you drew. I pride myself on having a good draw, and I had to work at making the shot within the time allotted. To respond to a question by MVS, excepting Mr_White, it would have been very difficult to consistently make that shot from concealment. While it would turn out that there was a continuum of shooting ability represented in the class, at 3 yards, it was very hard to discern differences in ability. We know this, and it later was reinforced in force on force, but this was a great reminder that distance is your friend.

    Besides stepping off the line, Gunsite is particular about the low ready, and not leaving the low ready until you have positively identified a target and made the decision to shoot. They want you shooting the target to the ground, scanning, and tac loading before holstering. They want eyes on the target not the magazine, even when speed reloading. They teach the overhand method for slide manipulation speed reloading and clearing malfunctions. Using the when in Rome approach, I tried hard to overhand, but I have so many repetitions sling shotting, that I gave up on the overhand, and they stopped bugging me about it. We worked through a series of drills, shooting from 3-25 yards, and finished with the dreaded "pivots and turns."

    After a one hour lunch break, it was time for the indoor and outdoor simulators. Gunsite doesn't advocate an individual clearing an indoor structure by themselves, unless there was a real emergency like a family member at risk, but primarily uses the exercise to reinforce tactical principles like how to deal with doors, corners, multiple threat areas, etc. It was challenging entering an unfamiliar structure, with multiple doors and threat areas, and encountering a range of targets depicting bad guys, innocents and LE members. Cory had a technique of opening doors, and aggressively withdrawing to a position of cover, even if it was some distance away. Interestingly, they would locate a low target close to a higher one, and if you didn't get the muzzle depressed to a low ready after shooting the first target, you would miss the low bad guy. Apparently, a number of students missed the low bad guy.

    I love outdoor simulators, probably because it feels like hunting. In the outdoor scenario, steel poppers were bad guys, except steel poppers with red on the bottom half were good guys. We were dodging thunderstorms on TD1, and I was happy that the donga, or outdoor simulator, didn't turn into a river. Following Gunsite doctrine, I shot the targets to the ground, and typically drove the steel over with three quick hits to the "head" portion of the popper.

    TD1 finished off with some more square range shooting.

    TD2, again with thunderstorms threatening, started with about an hour of square range shooting on the turning targets. We were doing failure drills of two to the body and one to the upper A zone, with tight time frames. Next, they brought a vehicle out to the range. After discussing how vehicles interface with bullets, we practiced dismounts, shooting on the move to cover, and taking positions behind the vehicle. Gunsite teaches a method of your left hand driving under the seat belt and hitting the release, your right hand drawing the pistol, with the muzzle traversing the steering wheel, shooting through the window, pushing the door open with one foot, and then exiting with both feet in the ground. This led to shooting on the move, forward and backwards. I have found that a tip I got from Bill Wilson in the Langdon Beretta class is very helpful -- worry less about timing the sights so exactly, and instead focus on a smooth trigger press, while accepting just general sight alignment.

    After a one hour lunch break, it was off to two different indoor and outdoor simulators. The rules of the day were you only had your dominant hand in the outdoor simulator, and only your support hand in the indoor simulator. Taking a quick look at the sky and the radar on my phone, I volunteered for the outdoor sim first, figuring I would have a better chance of staying dry inside later. I was first through the outdoor sim, and really enjoyed it. The furthest engagement possible on a popper was 35 yards, and I got it and every other target, one shot/one hit with the Brig Tac. Unlike freestyle, I could only get one, or at most two hits on a plate before it went down, due to the slower one hand shooting cadence. I did one reload, between my knees, Rogers style, and was done. Having been to the Rogers School multiple times was a major stress reliever dealing with the one hand shooting, loading and manipulations.

    Next it was off to the indoor sim, just as the rain started to come down hard. I had quite a wait, as it seemed like it took folks forever to get through the indoor sim, support hand only. Like the outdoor sim, I really enjoyed it support hand only, and given we had targets nailed to the wall, shot each bad guy three times through the head, for good measure. Another between the knees reload, part way through. I did notice the weight of the Brig Tac by the end of the exercise, as you were either shooting or at low ready throughout.

    We stopped at 330 pm for an early dinner, before the night shoot. At the Mexican joint in Chino Valley, the folks at the next table asked if we were at Gunsite, then proudly announced they had attended class, then showed us rattlesnake photos (an Arizona thing). Said they could pick us out a mile away, although hopefully not me in my t shirt over a JM George! We hit Gunsite just before dark, and started with a briefing by Cory on flashlights, various aspects of night ops, and safety considerations. Except for long guns and teams, Cory is not a big fan of weapon mounted lights, or even tritium sights. His view is that you need a light to search (really two lights, since two is one), and that once the light is on, the tritium sights are superfluous. He favors a neck index, but also moves that light all around to search and illuminate different areas. He most commonly shoots with the light in his support hand, and one hand with the pistol, or a Harries. Once indoors, he favors leaving the light on. Outside, he uses the light, then goes dark and moves. Even though I was shooting a Brig Tac. I decided to use a Glock 17 with a Crimson Trace laser, and an X300 and DG switch to experiment with the technology. I also used a Surefire 6Z as my searching light, with my standard Pro Tac 1L in reserve. I also had a Petzl Tactikka + on my hat. The Tactikka is a 140 lumen on high, variable power headlamp that also has a red light option.

    I ran the indoor simulator first. Right away, I realized I had an equipment deficiency, in that I really needed a short lanyard on my Surefire searching light, which would allow me to drop the light and let it dangle while shooting, reloading and doing other tasks with my support hand. What I ended up doing was using the light to search with my support hand, and then transitioning to a Rogers shooting technique. That gave me the 6Z and the X300 for light, but it seemed faster than trying to ditch the 6Z each time I engaged a target. I really didn't notice the green laser inside, as my iron sights (which were HD sights, although I couldn't see color or tritium) stood out so well. (Bill Rogers has commented that for students having trouble using the sights, a night session can often be helpful in getting them to use the sights, as they stand out so much.) The only issue I encountered, was I missed a small gun down low on one target, as it was just hard to see on the flat 2D target.

    Next it was off to the outdoor sim. I was happy not to be first, as I figured my classmates would have run off any rattlers that might have been down in the donga. In a perfect world, I would have run the outdoor sim with my -14 on my left eye, leaving my dominant right eye to use white light, but I was traveling light this week. Outside, the green laser was incredible. I quickly figured out that the laser allowed me to shoot on near a dead run, and I think Ron was having to hustle to keep up with me shooting on the move. The laser also made it very easy to drive the targets down with successive shots. If I was a guy on the night shift, I would very much want a laser on my duty gun. After finishing, while waiting with my fellow students, it was wonderful to be out in the pitch dark of the large Gunsite property, watching stars and listening to coyotes. The night shoot ended all too soon, as I would have loved to run a half dozen more sims that night.

    Hopefully tomorrow I can knock out TD3, which was the highlight of the course, the force on force sessions.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  8. #8
    Member orionz06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Really interested to hear about the FoF.
    Think for yourself. Question authority.

  9. #9
    Sounds like a great course, I can't wait to read about the FOF sessions!

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    East Greenwich, RI
    Great reviews, thanks.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •