Index vs press out

[SLG]

SLG, what aspect(s) of the pressout do you think makes it more consistent?

The gun is pointed at the target (or at least very close to the target) for a longer period of time. Your eyes have more time to force the sights to line up. Not as much time as people originally teaching the press out taught (IME), but still more time than a true index "escalator" type draw. Your finger has more time to remove much of the trigger weight and travel distance, which usually leads to better, more consistent accuracy.

Obviously this isn't true for everyone, for a variety of reasons. For the professional user, this still represents the fastest way to get better, with less practice, that I know of.

eta: As I've said before, the press out really shines with DA guns. A 1911 with a sub 2# trigger doesn't need much in the way of technique, to get a hit. A duty weapon will usually benefit from the press out.

[SLG]

I know there are guys who are very consistent with an index draw, but a huge number of GM level shooters are not so consistent. Especially when other people are on the range with them.

Really?

I was going to ignore this, since it is self evident to anyone who has even watched a USPSA match a time or two, but then I thought that might be rude. I hate to be rude.

I am not a GM. Not even a Master class USPSA shooter, the last time I was classified. A GM should be well able to beat me, in almost any aspect of "action" shooting, without trying too hard. Especially a top 16 GM. Yet time after time, I have seen them unable to perform. Not the really good ones, of course. They are the ones I learn from. There are plenty who have the title, who aren't so good though.

Take the FAST test, for example. Plenty of GM's have attempted it, multiple times even, yet very few have a coin. That skill set should be well within their ability. Yet they fail.

Consistency is a mental issue, as much as a physical one. Most people don't have much of a mental game. Many also have techniques that have to be perfect to work. 9 times out of 10, all is well. That tenth time, though is when I see mags fly across the range. The tenth time is when they miss a wide open target at close range. Let alone a popper at 15 yards. None of this is new, and all of this has been discussed here before. Really.

[CCT125US]

One thing that I really don't see talked about much when these discussions come up, and then I will step back in my lane. That is the presence of other gear such as packs and primary long guns. What works from your perspective and situation may not exactly apply to that of others. Keep that in mind when trying to convince folks on the internet that your way is better. You may want to hike several miles in their boots......

[wtturn]

Index is faster and more intuitive for me. But then again, I practice a little bit.

Press-out has always flown in the face of the "economy of motion" ideal that we see bandied about quite often.

To each his own.

[wtturn]

I know there are guys who are very consistent with an index draw, but a huge number of GM level shooters are not so consistent.

What's a "huge number"? What is "not so consistent"? Quantify this for us.

[RJ]

I have to make a comment. I've been on various shooting forums for well over 10 years. These types of threads, where people share and talk about the shooting specifics, is why I started to become more active in this forum. I really think that this is a great forum for those that are really interested in advancing their skill set with a pistol. Thanks everyone.

Yep.

This place is the only (and I mean only) forum that I part with my hard earned cash to support.

[RJ]

eta: As I've said before, the press out really shines with DA guns. A 1911 with a sub 2# trigger doesn't need much in the way of technique, to get a hit. A duty weapon will usually benefit from the press out.

Ahhhhhh...this is making a lot of sense.

I think.

Can I confirm?

So, a SFA shooter / gun (me, my VP9) with relatively short trigger action, might not need the long stroke of a press out to align the sights that a TDA/LEM pistol would?

Close?

In tonight's dry fire draws, I slowed down and focused on what I was doing. I had this thread in mind. If 0% was me at high ready, and 100% was fully extended, my sights appeared in front of my eyes at maybe 60-70%, and my finger moved from index to trigger at 80-90%.

That sounds like an elevator draw, right?

[wtturn]

Ahhhhhh...this is making a lot of sense.

Does it though?

"doesn't need much in the way of technique" ?? I'd argue the technique is (should be?) the same no matter what you're shooting.

There are only two fundamentals of shooting. 1. Align the sights. 2. Don't disturb that sight picture while you're pressing the trigger.

Whatever draw technique gets me doing #1 and #2 fastest is the superior one, no? None of that has anything to do with DA/SA, SAO, DAK, bolt-action, whatever.

I don't see how your trigger type affects the bedrock fundamentals one iota.

[breakingtime91]

Ahhhhhh...this is making a lot of sense.

I think.

Can I confirm?

So, a SFA shooter / gun (me, my VP9) with relatively short trigger action, might not need the long stroke of a press out to align the sights that a TDA/LEM pistol would?

Close?

In tonight's dry fire draws, I slowed down and focused on what I was doing. I had this thread in mind. If 0% was me at high ready, and 100% was fully extended, my sights appeared in front of my eyes at maybe 60-70%, and my finger moved from index to trigger at 80-90%.

That sounds like an elevator draw, right?

While the lem is a longer trigger pull then a sfa, its light and smooth. It is easy to "prep" through to the wall and then press through the wall. This is easily down continuously, no need to stage the pull.

[Surf]

For myself the situation greatly influences or dictates the type of draw I use. I generally have a high #2 position no matter what draw, so the start points for a hip holster or an appendix is coming from a high #2, albeit appendix is a bit higher or located a bit different. No matter what type of holster set up, the comparisons are similar. I have way too much video to go through, but I dug up some quick video clips that shows the differences. Small or greater differences, IMO they are all valid for myself and serve legitimate purposes. Due to training and repetition, I don't even think about what I am doing it just happens for the given situation.

Clip #1 - Up close, 7 yards, speed is of essence, generous acceptable hit zone, no standoff issues, no reactionary gap issues, no obstacles, and I will use an index. I pick up the sights about the last inch or so of the presentation. I am breaking the shot as soon as I hit extension. Much relies on a learned body position, being on the trigger as early as the muzzle levels on target, ideally with it prepped (trigger dependent) and a flash verification of sights or even just a muzzle alignment, skill dependent. This all happens pretty naturally when I choose the index draw.

Clip #2 - Hackathorns "The Test". Fairly close @10 yards, with a forgiving par time. Trying to keep shots in the 9 ring @ ~4". Some urgency for speed, but accuracy is a higher priority. No standoff issues, no reactionary gap issues, no obstacles, but need for quicker pace with greater accuracy and I will use a hybrid index / pressout. I didn't know what it was called, but it is what I perform. I will do a mix between a 45° and a "J" draw. I will only slightly elevate the muzzle and I will pick up the front sight about 2-3" or so prior to full extension and flatten the muzzle just before full extension.

Clip #3 - The appendix really matters little here. 25 yards, 8" hit zone. There is a greater need for accuracy with a lesser emphasis on speed, however I am still trying to maintain a par time. I have a barricade or an obstacle in front of me obscuring downrange view. I have a short standoff and moderate reactionary gap. Due to all of these considerations, I naturally go to more of a classic pressout. This keeps the weapon closer to my body / head which gives greater control of the weapon if immediate retention is needed prior to shooting. It also places the sights in my line of sight earlier. I use a more controlled presentation in which I exhale on the press, which allows me to alleviate tension, hit the respiratory pause for the first shot, calmer sights, more time to refine the sight alignment / sight picture and gives me more time on the trigger or better control.

Clip #4 - Again the appendix and even taking a knee matters little. I happens pretty much the same if I just remain standing or draw from a hip holster. Fairly close @10 yards, with a brisk par time, forgiving 8" hit zone. Speed is about equal consideration with accuracy. I have a barricade or an obstacle in front of me obscuring downrange view. I have a very short standoff and no real reactionary gap. Due to all of these considerations, I still use a high draw like a pressout, however since I need more speed with less refining of the sights, I opt for a muzzle flat pressout. This gives me more speed on target than a classic pressout. I know some are people are better than others, but I am faster with a flatter muzzle variant, but not as precise.

I know these are just drills but these are very similar situations that I find myself in during reality based training or when working. As far as my thinking goes as of right now, I have some real added benefit to having more than 1 draw stroke or presentation ingrained in my skill sets that I don't need to give any conscious thought into making it happen. I understand the one drawstroke concept and even teach it. But as I have said before I don't always do what I teach. It depends on the student, their skill level, time and resources that they have to dedicate to whatever they are doing.