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Thread: Index vs press out

  1. #1

    Index vs press out

    Just got my new pistol and I am looking forward to getting to the range on sunday. With that said I am/have been struggling with the press out. I find myself "feeling" faster with an index. Thoughts on both techniques?

  2. #2
    Member Luke's Avatar
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    I hate to sound like a newb, but what is a index? I know what a press out is.

  3. #3
    Todd talks about it here in this article. (Hopefully no one minds me posting a link to Todd's blog.)

    http://pistol-training.com/archives/9323

  4. #4
    As a newish shooter I probably experienced some of the same things you're experiencing with an unfamiliar gun. I have been doing more of a hybrid draw when going for speed, but I don't have enough muscle memory to do a pure index. The reason I do that is it helps me start to see the front sight earlier and guide it in. I wonder if that would work for you and slowly move to more of a pure index over time.

  5. #5
    There have been many forum debates on this over the years. I personally use an index draw, but for it to be an advantage you have to practice the draw quite often.

    As far as pure speed goes, index will be faster. If you don't have a highly developed index, then drawing on low-probability targets will probably be faster with a press-out.

  6. #6
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by breakingtime91 View Post
    Just got my new pistol and I am looking forward to getting to the range on sunday. With that said I am/have been struggling with the press out. I find myself "feeling" faster with an index. Thoughts on both techniques?
    Big question, and a good one.

    Index is the ability to grip the gun and present it in a very consistent way, developed through practice, so that the sights show up in perfect/near-perfect alignment with the target spot. It is not dependent on fine visual feedback to align the gun as it is extended. It is dependent on practiced kinesthetic ability, as well as coarse visual feedback. Once the gun stops or decelerates at the end of the drawstroke, sight refinement and trigger press can take place as needed. Normally, a draw dependent on index will not bother with trying to extend the gun in the true eye-target line. The gun would usually only enter the true eye-target line at the end of the stroke. This is the traditional kind of draw where you get the gun to its final position, then refine sights and trigger as necessary. Different people subscribe to different amounts of prepping/working the trigger before the end of the stroke. With a well-developed trigger press, a person can get the gun to its final position while getting the finger in position to press the trigger, then doing the entire active trigger press after the gun is stopped and sights are visually verified on target.

    A pressout is when the gun is extended in the true eye-target line so that the sights themselves can be used to aim the gun as it is extended. The trigger is manipulated in conjunction with the sights as the gun is extended, so that the gun fires at or very near when it stops at the end of the stroke.

    I think both are fine ways to draw the gun, and here are some things I have noticed, at least for myself, in spending lots of time practicing both ways.

    I went from an index draw with my initial training (the good old four count punch out type of draw), to a pressout of sorts later, and back to an index/slight hybrid draw at this point.

    I think the index draw is faster. For me, by around two tenths of a second when drawing to shoot a 3x5 at 7 yards. I think the difference comes from needing to artificially slow the extension of the gun during a pressout in order to be able to see and align the sights. If I do it at full speed, I don't see the sights well until the gun decelerates at the end of the stroke. If I'm not going to see the sights until the gun decelerates at the end of the stroke, then I might also dispense with extending the gun in the true eye-target line. Because...

    One of the attractive ideas about a pressout, is that the gun is meant to be visually verified as aligned with the target earlier in the stroke, allowing us to get on the trigger earlier - which requires extending the gun in the eye-target line, so we can see the actual sights earlier. Wrist angles can cause the muzzle to tilt upward when the gun is presented in the true eye-target line. When I worked the pressout, I tried hard to keep the muzzle level. Having reviewed video of myself, I can see that I don't actually keep the muzzle level if I present the gun in the true eye-target line. It tilts up a bit just about no matter what I do, and later into the stroke than I like. Because wrist angles/tension.

    Ironically, I can keep the muzzle pretty level when presenting the gun below the true eye-target line, as with an index draw, again because of the wrist angles involved. So I get more levelness to the muzzle, but worse awareness of it (kinesthetic instead of visual awareness.) Some people here have experienced high shots off the target when doing pressouts, even when they think the sights have been aligned. It is probably fair to say that is doing the pressout wrong, but I think it is a persistent problem for at least some people some of the time.

    Other purported benefits of the pressout include less anticipation and better alignment when drawing to nonstatic targets. I have not found those to be true for myself as far as I can tell. But I think other people here may have found that to be the case for them.

    Like I said, I think both draws can be done very, very well. At this point, I think there is maybe more headroom with an index draw. And it might be fair to say that an index draw might require more practice to keep sharp.

    There is a form of hybrid index/pressout that has emerged for me, which might be called a micro pressout. It's basically an index draw at full speed, and as the gun is decelerating in the last couple inches of extension, which is where I can clearly see the sights, I glide the gun to a smooth stop while seeing the sights, refining their alignment and working the trigger as the gun is stopping. Another way to think of that is an index draw, where the gun-target alignment is sufficient before the gun comes to a complete stop. So it's like a pressout at the very very last moment, and before that, it's an index draw.

    There are a lot of old discussions on PF on this subject if you do some searching. I don't want to come off as anti-pressout exactly. I do prefer the index/slight hybrid draw at this point but I think both can be done well and have plenty of potential. Hopefully members who are more current proponents of the pressout can cite their experiences for you.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by scw2 View Post
    As a newish shooter I probably experienced some of the same things you're experiencing with an unfamiliar gun. I have been doing more of a hybrid draw when going for speed, but I don't have enough muscle memory to do a pure index. The reason I do that is it helps me start to see the front sight earlier and guide it in. I wonder if that would work for you and slowly move to more of a pure index over time.
    I have had this issue with all pistols I have shot. Regardless of time spent with them, not sure if I am like everyone else but most guns point/feel similar to me. So an index with a glock is quite comparable to an index with an hk or beretta.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    Ironically, I can keep the muzzle pretty level when presenting the gun below the true eye-target line, as with an index draw, again because of the wrist angles involved. So I get more levelness to the muzzle, but worse awareness of it (kinesthetic instead of visual awareness.) Some people here have experienced high shots off the target when doing pressouts, even when they think the sights have been aligned. It is probably fair to say that is doing the pressout wrong, but I think it is a persistent problem for at least some people some of the time.

    Other purported benefits of the pressout include less anticipation and better alignment when drawing to nonstatic targets. I have not found those to be true for myself as far as I can tell. But I think other people here may have found that to be the case for them.

    Like I said, I think both draws can be done very, very well. At this point, I think there is maybe more headroom with an index draw. And it might be fair to say that an index draw might require more practice to keep sharp.

    There is a form of hybrid index/pressout that has emerged for me, which might be called a micro pressout. It's basically an index draw at full speed, and as the gun is decelerating in the last couple inches of extension, which is where I can clearly see the sights, I glide the gun to a smooth stop while seeing the sights, refining their alignment and working the trigger as the gun is stopping. Another way to think of that is an index draw, where the gun-target alignment is sufficient before the gun comes to a complete stop. So it's like a pressout at the very very last moment, and before that, it's an index draw.
    This is exactly what I have found. When doing a press out my muzzle is never truly straight on, its always a little up so it takes me some time towards the middle/end of the press out to refine/press. With the index/hybrid thing I am doing I get the gun to where I am comfortable to begin my press/refine. press outs at speed have been hit or miss with me and I have been at this for over four thousand rounds as a main focus.
    Last edited by Tom_Jones; 10-02-2015 at 05:23 PM. Reason: fixed quote

  9. #9
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Here are some pictures I made for a prior discussion here. I named them in accordance with my preference for a pressout at that time. These are only illustrative of the path the gun takes, particularly with regard to the true eye-target line. However, the other two key variables in my opinion are the speed at which the gun is presented (full speed throughout, or artificially slowed?), and whether the gun is aligned with the target through fine visual awareness (sights), coarse visual awareness (back of slide, fists and gun extending, etc.), and kinesthetic awareness (a practiced sense of feel), which I think are in play in different amounts and combinations depending on the path of the gun and what the person has learned to use to get it aligned on target.

    What I do at this point is probably closest to either the first or fifth picture.


    [img]02_Punch_Out_Draw by OrigamiAK, on Flickr[/img]
    [img]06_Press_Out_Draw_Wrong by OrigamiAK, on Flickr[/img]
    [img]05_Press_Out_Draw by OrigamiAK, on Flickr[/img]
    [img]04_Less_Efficient_Punch_Out_Draw by OrigamiAK, on Flickr[/img]
    [img]03_Less_Efficient_Punch_Out_Draw by OrigamiAK, on Flickr[/img]
    [img]01_Competition_Index_Draw by OrigamiAK, on Flickr[/img]
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom_Jones View Post
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