Index vs press out

[RJ]

While the lem is a longer trigger pull then a sfa, its light and smooth. It is easy to "prep" through to the wall and then press through the wall. This is easily down continuously, no need to stage the pull.

With a LEM, are you getting on the trigger BEFORE the sights have settled, because of the long pull?

Keep in mind, my DK might be showing.

[Sal Picante]

I was going to ignore this, since it is self evident to anyone who has even watched a USPSA match a time or two, but then I thought that might be rude. I hate to be rude.

I know your reputation so I'm not trying to be disrespectful or impolite... However, putting a jarring statement out there gives one pause.

Take the FAST test, for example. Plenty of GM's have attempted it, multiple times even, yet very few have a coin. That skill set should be well within their ability. Yet they fail.

Getting a challenge coin vs. being able to do the FAST are two different things - Most heavily involved USPSA guys I know (not just GM's) are not really into taking a class, which they perceive as possibly teaching a "bad habit" (press out).

What I do know is that several GM's have made videos of shooting the FAST drill and they're rocking it in the mid-3's.

Ok, but those are "top-16 GM's" - You're saying non-top 16 guys

I think there are some variations and no doubt, some people might be over classified, but I can even use myself as an example.

I've never taken one of Todd's classes, but I've won quite a few challenge coins: Roger's Advanced (not the blue pin), A couple of Ben Stoeger challenge tags, several Team Spartan challenge pins (that's 1/2 of 'em), a few coins from classes at LETC in 2011 and 2012. I wore the Langdon Tactical shirt I won at his class until it literally fell apart.

I've done the FAST drill a bit and I like it since it is kinda fun, but when you've cleaned it a few times in the mid-3's, what else is there to learn from the drill?

Consistency is a mental issue, as much as a physical one. Most people don't have much of a mental game.

I'm apt to agree here, however, most of the GM's that I've known or seen don't get to where they're at without developing some of that grit.

Oh, and I'll leave this here - had the entire class watching - the first shot was an "elevator" to the head plate at 7 yards. With Bill Rogers running me.

[breakingtime91]

With a LEM, are you getting on the trigger BEFORE the sights have settled, because of the long pull?

Keep in mind, my DK might be showing.

Nope, as soon as I see my sights are acceptable I begin my press, how long that alignment/press takes is up to the difficulty of the shot. You have to be able to fight that "now" feeling.

[breakingtime91]

I know your reputation so I'm not trying to be disrespectful or impolite... However, putting a jarring statement out there gives one pause.



Getting a challenge coin vs. being able to do the FAST are two different things - Most heavily involved USPSA guys I know (not just GM's) are not really into taking a class, which they perceive as possibly teaching a "bad habit" (press out).

What I do know is that several GM's have made videos of shooting the FAST drill and they're rocking it in the mid-3's.

Ok, but those are "top-16 GM's" - You're saying non-top 16 guys

I think there are some variations and no doubt, some people might be over classified, but I can even use myself as an example.

I've never taken one of Todd's classes, but I've won quite a few challenge coins: Roger's Advanced (not the blue pin), A couple of Ben Stoeger challenge tags, several Team Spartan challenge pins (that's 1/2 of 'em), a few coins from classes at LETC in 2011 and 2012. I wore the Langdon Tactical shirt I won at his class until it literally fell apart.

I've done the FAST drill a bit and I like it since it is kinda fun, but when you've cleaned it a few times in the mid-3's, what else is there to learn from the drill?





I'm apt to agree here, however, most of the GM's that I've known or seen don't get to where they're at without developing some of that grit.

Oh, and I'll leave this here - had the entire class watching - the first shot was an "elevator" to the head plate at 7 yards. With Bill Rogers running me.

That is halarious. Awesome shooting, hopefully some day I'll have the money to make it to some training with him. Great shooting

[RJ]

Nope, as soon as I see my sights are acceptable I begin my press, how long that alignment/press takes is up to the difficulty of the shot. You have to be able to fight that "now" feeling.

Aha, gotcha.

[Mr_White]

You have to be able to fight that "now" feeling.

Yes. That is pretty huge.

[Mr_White]

So I think this is a really interesting discussion - what does it mean about a shooter that they are GM, or have won a FAST coin, or can shoot a certain level on the FAST in practice, or shoot Advanced at Rogers, etc?

I personally don't think any single test, drill, ranking, or measure can wholly define a shooter's skill level. They all measure something. They all mean something. They all measure a shooter in different ways or from different angles. I think one good score/ranking/measurement/metric means something; a bundle of different ones means a lot more though.

[Sal Picante]

So I think this is a really interesting discussion - what does it mean about a shooter that they are GM, or have won a FAST coin, or can shoot a certain level on the FAST in practice, or shoot Advanced at Rogers, etc?

I guess all these things imply competence...

I personally don't think any single test, drill, ranking, or measure can wholly define a shooter's skill level. They all measure something. They all mean something. They all measure a shooter in different ways or from different angles. I think one good score/ranking/measurement/metric means something; a bundle of different ones means a lot more though.

I agree. My "bundle" happens to largely be the USPSA classification system.


Circling back to the topic of Pressout vs index, I see this discussion of changing the draw depending on the situation (Surf's post above).

Back in the original thread, many moons ago, I brought up that someone would just subconsciously change their draw stroke if, say, something was in front of them. I still think that is the case.

[Mr_White]

Circling back to the topic of Pressout vs index, I see this discussion of changing the draw depending on the situation (Surf's post above).

Back in the original thread, many moons ago, I brought up that someone would just subconsciously change their draw stroke if, say, something was in front of them. I still think that is the case.

That is right at the heart of many discussions. Can someone under stress perceive a stimulus and react appropriately to it? Clearly they can. Can a person expect to be able to spontaneously invent and execute unrehearsed complex solutions? Probably a lot tougher. Where is the tipping point between the two extremes? Is it different for different people at different skill and experience levels? The different contexts people have to deal with and the views people take on the answers to these types of questions go a long way toward defining the handgun doctrine they think is best.

[breakingtime91]

That is right at the heart of many discussions. Can someone under stress perceive a stimulus and react appropriately to it? Clearly they can. Can a person expect to be able to spontaneously invent and execute unrehearsed complex solutions? Probably a lot tougher. Where is the tipping point between the two extremes? Is it different for different people at different skill and experience levels? The different contexts people have to deal with and the views people take on the answers to these types of questions go a long way toward defining the handgun doctrine they think is best.

It would be interesting to watch dash cam videos/body cam videos and see, if under stress, someone will just draw the way that they are trained, the way they have to because of the circumstance, or as fast as possible so they can get hits/see their sights.