I saw Melody's thing about that with Ernest. I don't remember him emphasizing that point in class last year. I will be sure to keep my eyes and ears open for it this weekend.Originally Posted by SLG
I saw Melody's thing about that with Ernest. I don't remember him emphasizing that point in class last year. I will be sure to keep my eyes and ears open for it this weekend.
I learned to pin the trigger from Steve Nastoff. I use it in slow fire. I'm not sure what I do at speed.
One time I was shooting a USPSA match. When I loaded on the last 2 stages, the trigger didn't set. I rolled the Glock over to gangsta to eject the round close to me and the trigger set and I finished the stages. When I went to bag the Glock, I found that the trigger spring was broken. Does that mean I pinned the trigger on every shot for the last 2 stages?
1) I'm not sure that anyone fully resets the trigger before the slide starts coming forward again.I learned to pin the trigger from Steve Nastoff. I use it in slow fire. I'm not sure what I do at speed.
One time I was shooting a USPSA match. When I loaded on the last 2 stages, the trigger didn't set. I rolled the Glock over to gangsta to eject the round close to me and the trigger set and I finished the stages. When I went to bag the Glock, I found that the trigger spring was broken. Does that mean I pinned the trigger on every shot for the last 2 stages?
2) The Glock can reset under recoil without a trigger spring and without pinning the trigger. It's not a guarantee. Pinning the trigger makes it a guarantee.
I am not taking any comments as directed towards or in response to my posts, but I think there is some gray area here on "pinning" and "difficult shots". Full disclosure - I am not a world champion shooter, nor do I consider my own shooting skills to be in the realm of those I consider to be extraordinary, however there are those that feel I have a certain trigger ability (whether good or bad) and they are not able to replicate what I or some others do with a trigger pull either, so take what follows fwiw.
I wholeheartedly agree that "pinning" is not a good thing and attempted to be cautious about making references in my own shooting, because I don't really feel what I do, or maybe what some others are doing is really "pinning" between shots. How quickly the reset under the recoil phase takes place may definitely be more deliberate, but not truly what I consider "pinning" and I am pretty darn 100% positive that I am on the same page with what we are talking about when it comes to "pinning" even in reference to the article. However, this may not be the case for everyone and I think there is a bit of difference in what some may be talking about when it comes to their definition of "pinning" and perhaps what constitutes a "difficult shot".
First, for "pinning". I can work certain triggers where I don't actually hit the full overtravel of the trigger. The sear may release, but I don't actually "pin" the trigger at the furthest point of overtravel. But I may not also "reset" the trigger as fast for certain shots. Maybe I am nitpicking this definition, but I do have varied results with a deliberate pull without "pinning" or continuing to hold pressure on the trigger at full rearward travel until after the recoil phase is complete. I think "pinning" is problematic even for "difficult shots", especially if we are talking extreme precision. I say this as a shooter tends to induce some bad juju into their "difficult shot" with a true "pinning of the trigger. Now what you may hear from my own shooting from time to time depending on the shot is the trigger resetting. Which for myself and some others that I know, are not truly "pinning" the trigger to the rear.
If we stick with a pistol for this example, the pistol or more so the trigger type plays a factor for me. I definitely have different attentions to detail when it comes to trigger manipulation in reference to my STI or any of my other very slick 1911 flat faced, straight draw triggers that have minimal pre-travel, minimal sear movement and minimal reset with a low overall pull weight as opposed to my stock style Glock triggers. I will give them a bit different attention when working them for "difficult shots". The 1911 triggers have almost no overtravel, so yes I may hit the farthest point of overtravel, but the reset is much quicker, so I am not really pinning the trigger so to speak. It's more like a "rebound" off the rear without creating any more influence than what the pistol produces on its own. For a Glock, I generally stop the pull somewhere in the sloppy area between sear release and before hitting full overtravel. I may hover in that area longer depending on the shot, but not really "pinning". Might sound like I am somewhere in never never land with this one, but I know quite a few others who do this, so I can't be the only guy. I was never taught this, just what I came to on my own conclusions from shooting.
Which is why I easily double up and may get into a bump fire situation with a very light pulling trigger on a heavier recoiling semi auto weapon when shooting for precision, particularly rifles. Bill Geissele and I had a good conversation about this in reference to my shooting type and some of his triggers on certain applications. Those who come from a heavily influenced precision background on a bolt rifle may understand this example and will more easily understand my trigger pull without "pinning" and yes I do this trigger pull on a pistol for long range pistol precision.
Again definition of "difficult shot" is also subjective. If I were running a Glock or any weapon on 10"x14" steel let's say at 50 yards with consistent hits, even at about .50 splits we probably wouldn't hear any resetting of the trigger as I would not hover on the trigger as long. Some might think this a difficult shot, some may not. Take that same Glock to maybe 100 yards on the same target and you might hear a reset. Still not "pinning" in my definition, but definitely not as quick of a reset as maintaining my finger placement is critical for a follow on, so everything is more deliberate. Again, some might think a difficult shot, some might not. With my STI and this kind of attention wouldn't even come into play until about say 150 yards on the same size target, but I still wouldn't call it "pinning" in my definition, but more like a natural rebound off the overtravel as the weapon does its thing, but not a deliberate "pinning". Out to about 200 yards on this same size steel and I am definitely more tuned to the trigger pull that is even more deliberate. Not deliberate in thinking that I may disrupt the accuracy of the weapon before the bullet leaves the barrel or something like that from pinning, but that my actual pull is better with a more precise pull in not causing any other influence of my grip etc..
I am going to put this one out there and it may draw heat, but I also think it is a bit disingenuous when highly skilled shooters talk about a very slick 1911 or competition style trigger with very low pound pull, very little overall trigger movement and virtually no overtravel and say that the best way to run a pistol is to "slap" or "jerk" the trigger. It is more like feathering the trigger, or what I reference as a "flip and press". Try that same trigger technique and pressure on a Glock trigger and you will never give that same shooter equal results. Hell that same "flip and press" technique I use on one of my slick 1911 triggers, won't even pull a standard Glock trigger.
Now we may not notice a huge difference when a world champion does that technique with their race gun vs a crappy trigger and they may look like Gods to us mere mortals but I guarantee you they notice a difference in their own results. I have often seen some newer shooters or even instructors say, well so and so shooter (insert world champion) slaps or jerks the trigger so that is what I do, or what they teach. For one, you probably don't have a pistol that holds the same candle as theirs and if you do, you sure as heck don't hold a candle to their shooting skills. I almost guarantee the mere mortal shooter will not get away with this and will not be nearly as good of a shooter than if they learned a more precise pull method early on.
Which is also why I don't like seeing people demo "hammering" the trigger with an object. If you are teaching the point that no matter the force applied to the trigger, as long as that force is straight, inline and direct to the rear you will get consistent results, I still think that is not a correct visual reference to leave someone with. As mentioned in the article a casing on the front sight is a better visual reference as well as a better tactile reference, than beating the piss out of the trigger with a screwdriver or similar object. The problem is most shooters do all kinds of other crazy things with the grip or weapon presentation when they jerk, slap or hammer at a trigger. Hammering it straight to the rear is not the problem, it is everything else that goes into the equation from that jerking, slapping or hammering that causes the problem of the weapon not staying aligned. I guess it is just not my preference in how I teach someone about trigger manipulation, especially if they are new or newer to shooting. I wouldn't slap, jerk or hammer at the trigger on a precision rifle and I take that same philosophy into other weapons. Just my preference.
Sorry about the slight drift at the end.
As often happens in these threads, I think there is some confusion about purpose.
I do not ever purposely pin the trigger, as it has no benefit. I do pin the trigger, for a short period of time, when shooting slow deliberate accurate shots. The reason is because my conscious mind is busy making the shot, and it takes a small amount of time to decide the shot is over and begin the next one, if needed.
What F2S is talking about, is different, in that speed is now a part of the equation. I shoot the 50 or 25 yard line like I described above. No time limit there that matters. In timed and rapid fire, I do as F2S does, because time matters. I am not a great Bullseye shooter (298/300 being my best with a duty gun, and 295-297 being my usual score), but I have never met a good Bullseye shooter who didn't reset fast during timed and rapid.
F2S, if I misunderstood, please correct me.
I really think this varies by shooter, by pistol, by specific trigger, and by the target size.
Let's start with the target I was shooting. It was an eight inch steel, slightly tilted, that effectively made it smaller. I estimate a seven inch round because of the tilt. My math says that would be the equivalent of a 3.5 inch target at 25 yards, with the shot being pass/fail, since a miss by any fraction was a miss. However, since it was at 50, and I was shooting a variety of ammo, mostly Aguila 124, AE 124, and Lawman 115, the accuracy of the gun/ammo comes into play. If the ammo was 2.5 inch accurate at 25, we are talking 5 inches at 50, which further contributes to the difficulty of hitting the plate.
Early in the exercise, which was over several days, I was shooting my Mink SP01 Shadow. I could hit the target at will, using standard technique, which is to reset the trigger no differently than shooting a close Bill drill, meaning as fast as possible. The problem came in with the Gen 4 19. With the trigger reset, I would be starting from the wall, and then working through the rest of the travel, using different techniques, from continuous pressure, to variable pressure depending upon what I was seeing in the sights. This style shooting was fatiguing, as you are concentrating very hard. With the 19, my results would start as decent, but then go downhill -- something I believe that is related to how much concentration it takes me to run the Glock trigger on a very hard target. (I consider this target, between its absolute size at that distance, plus the compound effect of the gun/ammo accuracy, to be very demanding.) I was thinking, that compared to the Mink Shadow, running this 19 trigger on this size target, felt like herding cats.
While I am agnostic about different ways folks work the trigger, my personal experience is that I shoot best with continuous trigger movement. In fact, when I stop the trigger, the result is almost always a slower and less accurate shot. As my results got worse with the Glock, as I fatigued, I decide WTF, I would initially just try to flip off and run the entire travel of the trigger in one motion, as what I was doing took so much effort with the Glock. Right off, I started hitting that target consistently. Initially, I was freezing everything out of the shot, with the trigger pinned where the sights ended up after they lifted. Then I started experimenting with bringing the gun back on target, and with sights on the target, then releasing the trigger and working it in one continuous motion. That gave me my best success rate with the Glock.
I really don't think the reason this method was helping me, had anything to do with pinning the trigger as part of follow through. I believe it helped because holding the trigger back helped me work the entire trigger travel in one continuous motion. Then, I grabbed a P239. Great shooting little gun, but with its barrel length/sight radius, not what most folks would pick to hit this target. Double action, it really didn't matter as the long travel gave me what I needed. Single action, again the working the trigger in one continuous motion, after holding the trigger back, gave me the best results.
I am not an instructor. I am not suggesting this is something you should do. I am not suggesting this will work across all platforms. I am not suggesting this is something that I will do next week. I reported it with this thread, because my results were good enough, and the method unusual enough, it might be worth experimenting with -- especially because in the case of the 19 and 239, it allowed me to achieve reach out more like I expect with a larger pistol.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Agree with the above.
I do tend to pin bolt gun triggers, which in my application is probably closer to what the OP is talking about.
From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff
Director Of Sales
Knight's Armament Company
If referencing a bolt, I think there is a misunderstanding here of what I am doing. The pinning is not about following through on the shot that just happened, it is to facilitate the next shot. Since the finger needs to come off the trigger to work the bolt handle, it is not germain to what I am discussing, since the motion of manipulating the bolt precludes resetting the trigger in recoil.
If anyone wants to give this a whirl, pick a target difficult enough that your "standard" method isn't giving you the hit rate you desire, try what I am doing, and see if this helps.
Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.
Gotcha.
From Tapatalk:
Jack Leuba
Knight's Armament Company: Military/Govt Product Liaison
F2S Consulting: Director of Shooting Stuff
Director Of Sales
Knight's Armament Company
I don't pin the trigger and I don't feel the reset, it just happens. If I pin the trigger and do a slow reset, I can see how the trigger works, but that's not how I shoot it. I make no claim that my way is the way, I'm just saying that is what happens for me. With 20,000 plus rounds through my G34, I reset the trigger during recoil.
I am experimenting with prepping then breaking the trigger vs just pushing it through with one smooth stroke. I've usually prepped the trigger on difficult targets.
During a recent class we on purpose moved the front post in the notch all the way to the left, then all the way to the right, then low, then high. All shots for me were still in the A zone at 7 yards. It just proved to me that I needed to get a better trigger technique and it wasn't about sight picture for me.
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