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Thread: Insurance for Conceal Carrier ?

  1. #21
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmymjr View Post
    USCCA has a good policy just for CCW


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    Can you be a little more substantive than "has a good policy?"

    How much coverage?

    Do they reserve the right to not represent you, and under what conditions?
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

  2. #22
    Most insurance policies cover negligence, like your car insurance. Intentional acts are excluded under most policies. If you buy insurance you need to read the policy language closely ahead of time. If you shoot an innocent bystander perhaps coverage for your poor shooting (negligence) would apply. If the guy you shoot sues you it may be excluded as an intentional act. Insurance generally has indemnity (a pool of money to pay claims) and also provides a defense (lawyer). If you cause a car wreck the insurance company will provide you a lawyer if you are sued. You should also look to see in these type of concealed carry policies whether it contains the "defense" provisions. Also, if it does, they will choose the lawyer not you. That may matter because if you shoot someone, then they are either dead or not doing well. You need a competent felony level criminal defense lawyer because if you are facing charges you will face felony charges, big ones. Hopefully one with enough sense to understand when and how to employ experts. Speaking of experts, those may or may not be covered by insurance, you need to know that because they are not cheap. Marty Hayes' deal does provide experts I have read but I know no details about that.

    Does this CCW insurance distinguish between civil and criminal action against you? Does it exclude one or the other? If you are charged with murder, will they defend that and the civil suit that is coming for wrongful death?

    You need to see a policy applicable to the state you reside in. What is legally done in California in a policy may be illegal in Texas, last time I checked California itself is illegal in Texas, so the policy provisions may be null and void in various states. Don't rely on reading a generic "national policy".

    Does the defense provision expire when the policy limit is tendered on a claim? If you have $100k of insurance and the suit is for $1 mil, the insurance company could decide the case against you has merit and tender the policy limit. The person suing you may say no thanks I'll go forward with my suit. If the carrier has tendered the policy limit do they still have a duty to defend you? You need to know. In the hypo your insurance company will not hand over the $100k without a full release of claims for you however.

    So there will be a close look at whether your shooting is construed as negligent or intentional and you coverage probably hinges on that.

    Umbrellas in my experience are a good bargain in insurance. Often you have to have high auto limits on your base policy to get one, but the umbrella is usually pretty cheap. The same applies with intentional acts in most places. Sticking a 3 million umbrella over your home and autos may be a good idea but it may not be much help in this type of situation.

    With few exceptions if you are arrested following a shooting (or anything else) follow instructions and keep your mouth shut, other than maybe "he attacked me"...the key phrase is I want to speak to my attorney, not I want to remain silent.

    State laws vary widely, national one-size fits all solutions probably aren't solutions. I would do a lot of homework before I spent money on insurance for this.

    And an off topic unsolicited opinion, I would stop posting videos of yourself (not you personally) shooting on You Tube.

    Just my .02

    IAALIANYL


    Quote Originally Posted by Clay1 View Post
    I asked a fellow shooter who is a master class USPSA shooter but the reason that I also asked him is that he is a trial attorney. He told me that I should give HIM lots of money to be on retainer, then I would be OK. Then he laughed and said not to waste my money on any of those so called insurance policies. He said that I should have a trial attorney that specializes in citizen and police shootings in my phone so that if I need an attorney, I don't have to figure out which one to get when I need it but well before that.

    He also suggested that learn more about the law and After Action shooting protocols. Official cover your but statement: I'm not giving any legal advice here, just verbalizing my own opinion.

    For me I looked into the NRA one, I'm an NRA recruiter; I looked into Marty Haze? organization and the other one. I kept my money in my pocket.

    Note: I also called my insurance company and my agent told me that American Family insurance would offer me no such coverage. When I asked about an umbrella policy, he said that wouldn't do me any good either. I wanted some more insurance as a firearms trainer and so I asked about the umbrella policy there, they called the underwriters directly and they wanted nothing to do with it in any way.

    Good luck to you finding a solution that will work for you.
    Last edited by Ray Keith; 10-01-2015 at 11:07 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Keith View Post
    And an off topic unsolicited opinion, I would stop posting videos of yourself (not you personally) shooting on You Tube.
    Got any case history of people being hung out to dry because of that on what otherwise would have been a good shoot?

  4. #24
    Here is one that they recommended at my concealed carry class. I don't have it, but it seems pretty reasonable (as low as $9/month). I think they recommend lawyers but talking to a lawyer in your area who specializes in firearms beforehand would probably be a good idea to make sure he accepts this type of arrangement. http://www.secondcalldefense.org/plans-and-pricing


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Got any case history of people being hung out to dry because of that on what otherwise would have been a good shoot?
    I don't know about "hung out to dry" we did have a shooting a few years ago, where a store owner shot a robber. The robber ran out of the store, jumped in his car, sped off, died and went barreling through a busy intersection and caused a 6 car major crash. I know the store owner got sued because I had to go sit at county court all day while the lawyers went and haggled. I to talk to one of the attorneys for the plaintiffs and he was fairly confident that the store owner would be liable for the damages from the crash. It was settled out of court, I don't know for how much or who had what percent of the liability.

  6. #26
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Got any case history of people being hung out to dry because of that on what otherwise would have been a good shoot?
    Criminally, no.

    In civil court? One of the first things the attorney asked me in the deposition for a wrongful death lawsuit was "what are your hobbies?". You can guarantee that they tried to find social media under my name as well (which is why I don't have any). Theatrics plays in to civil court even more than criminal court, and a lot more information can be admitted. This particular offender was not killed by gunfire, but the questions and tactics are same/same.

  7. #27
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    How does that play in states which grant civil immunity to people who are not found criminally liable in a self defense shooting?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    How does that play in states which grant civil immunity to people who are not found criminally liable in a self defense shooting?
    Depends on the state... and the case.
    In WA if I'm found not guilty in a self-defense shooting the other side has to pay my court fees. (Gross Simplification Alert!)
    Recovering Gun Store Commando. My Blog: The Clue Meter
    “It doesn’t matter what the problem is, the solution is always for us to give the government more money and power, while we eat less meat.”
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Can you be a little more substantive than "has a good policy?"

    How much coverage?

    Do they reserve the right to not represent you, and under what conditions?
    Self-Defense Shield | US Concealed Carry Association | USCCA
    Recovering Gun Store Commando. My Blog: The Clue Meter
    “It doesn’t matter what the problem is, the solution is always for us to give the government more money and power, while we eat less meat.”
    Glenn Reynolds

  10. #30
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    For reference, here's a cut/paste from my umbrella policy (AMICA)
    However, this Exclusion (A.1.) does not
    apply to:
    "Bodily injury" resulting from the use
    of reasonable force by an "insured" to
    protect persons or property; or
    "Bodily injury" or "property damage"
    resulting from the use of reasonable
    force by an "insured" to prevent or
    eliminate danger in the operation of
    "autos", "recreational motor vehicles"
    or watercraft;
    And from a similar policy sold by Safeco.
    This exclusion does not apply to bodily inju-
    ry resulting from a reasonable action by any
    insured in preventing or eliminating danger
    in the operation of vehicles or aircraft or pro-
    tecting persons or property.
    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Constitution, Draft 1, 1776

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