"There Is Too Much Social Media On This Firing Line"

[Eyesquared]

That seems to be much of what he teaches.

I know, I took a peek at his course listings. I think this is sort of besides the point; he doesn't specifically advocate that your average citizen needs these classes. I think trainers can provide whatever the hell kind of training they want so long as they aren't misrepresenting themselves or the curriculum. At the least he has the real world background to teach these things, unlike some others, and I'm sure there are private security types who could use this kind of class.

People say stupid shit online all of the time. Welcome to social media. There are even people saying good things about Bernie Sanders in social media!

I keep circling back to the author being miffed that he is not getting the respect he thinks that he deserves.

I think he has a point when saying that firearms training is not really the same as other free market scenarios. In the case of "tactical" firearms training your life may be staked on your training, and if someone exaggerated their experience or their credentials then in some way, they may be responsible for your unfortunate demise if you fuck up for real. If I got shot doing something I learned from a fraud I certainly wouldn't be very happy! If an instructor claims to teach "tactical" shooting classes the implication is that they're teaching combat relevant and vetted technique. If I ended up getting something that is totally untested except in Instructor Zero's backyard, that seems to be somewhat problematic.

While there isn't any governing body on what is "good" technique in shooting, I think there should be some level of self-regulation in that instructors need to be careful of overstepping the bounds of their experience. For example, I wouldn't want to learn "tactical" shooting from Cory and Erika and I don't think they would be morally correct in offering "tactical" shooting classes without input from someone who's actually vetted the techniques.

[voodoo_man]

There are plenty of instructors who shouldnt morally teach ccw tactics beyond marksmanship, yet people pay top dollar to them.

One of the first questions I ask an instructor ive never trained with before is if they are willing to testify in court and backup what they are teaching. Might be worth starting a trend with that.

[Dagga Boy]

There are plenty of instructors who shouldnt morally teach ccw tactics beyond marksmanship, yet people pay top dollar to them.

One of the first questions I ask an instructor ive never trained with before is if they are willing to testify in court and backup what they are teaching. Might be worth starting a trend with that.

My experience has been that many instructors can't or really don't teach marksmanship. Stuff is boring, not fast, takes patience and practice. It requires very good diagnostic and analytical skills on the part of the instructor, and the communication skills to get their diagnostics appraisals across. Many places have crap for marksmanship standards, and don't even assess targets.

As far as court....forget willing to testify. How about has your training been court tested and in which ones. There are a metric ton of folks training in this industry who may be willing to testify, but are not going to be doing you any favors in a deposition or in front of a jury.

[orionz06]

There are a metric ton of folks training in this industry who may be willing to testify, but are not going to be doing you any favors in a deposition or in front of a jury.

This!

[LSP972]

My experience has been that many instructors can't or really don't teach marksmanship.

Indeed. But you cannot put all the blame on the instructors. The great bulk of my instructor experience has been with a captive audience; they were ordered to be there, and in many cases their continued employment depended upon their performance. THAT, with very few exceptions, is the only real motivator amongst those who haven't seen the elephant, BTW (I know you know this, DB. It was for the benefit of others reading the thread).

But when I began teaching regular citizens who were paying for the experience, the paradigm changed. Now, the students were not under any pressure, and if things weren't going their way, no prob, Bob. They either smiled and nodded (and continued to do it wrong/etc.) or just quit paying attention entirely. And as long as they don't become unsafe, I don't give a shit either. Didn't, I mean; I don't teach anyone anything anymore, except family members and a few select folks I care about who are interested in learning some things.

LL, I read the piece and I didn't pick up on any aggravation at a perceived lack of respect for the author, by the author. Then again, I was too busy agreeing with his portrayal of the current "training market".

.

[Dave J]

First, thanks. The comments in this thread that have been supportive, especially on a forum I'm pretty new to and from a board with a lot of really knowledgeable folks, has been fantastic.

That said, I'd love to have you. I would suppose, though, there are some equally qualified folks who would be a lot closer to you. That's part of what I'm addressing with the inefficient market. I'm certainly not trying to dissuade you, but it seems that a lot of travel time and money could be saved if you could find the same content closer to home.

If time, please post or PM me with details. I have family in your neck of the woods, and am overdue for a visit anyway.

[voodoo_man]

My experience has been that many instructors can't or really don't teach marksmanship. Stuff is boring, not fast, takes patience and practice. It requires very good diagnostic and analytical skills on the part of the instructor, and the communication skills to get their diagnostics appraisals across. Many places have crap for marksmanship standards, and don't even assess targets.

As far as court....forget willing to testify. How about has your training been court tested and in which ones. There are a metric ton of folks training in this industry who may be willing to testify, but are not going to be doing you any favors in a deposition or in front of a jury.

They may not be doing you any favors, but there isnt exactly a "this worked in court" law class taught my a lawyer in response to shooting. In LE we have a pretty good metric that goes upside down sometimes but is reliable for the most part.

For ccw guys, its pretty difficult to really put a finger on what works and what doesnt in court, especially since in some states you would be allowed to do something that will land you in jail in othet states.

[BehindBlueI's]

My experience has been that many instructors can't or really don't teach marksmanship. Stuff is boring, not fast, takes patience and practice. It requires very good diagnostic and analytical skills on the part of the instructor, and the communication skills to get their diagnostics appraisals across. Many places have crap for marksmanship standards, and don't even assess targets.

As far as court....forget willing to testify. How about has your training been court tested and in which ones. There are a metric ton of folks training in this industry who may be willing to testify, but are not going to be doing you any favors in a deposition or in front of a jury.

I can only tell people what I've seen prosecuted, what has not been prosecuted, and why. I try to explain bright line, fuzzy area, bright line as far as 'good shoot' vs 'bad shoot' and the like. I use real examples to illustrate it, and will say what factors the screening prosecutor considered.

I'd also add, I don't do handgun training. I don't think I'm to the level of handgun proficiency where I have any business training others in that regard, although frankly in most open enrollment classes just a grasp of grip fundamentals would help most people out tremendously.

I'm also just using myself as an example, I'm not soliciting for students. I have no idea when we'll have time to run the class again. I sincerely appreciate the people who've reached out to me, and if you find yourself in Indiana, PM me and I'd be willing to just sit down and talk about some of the lessons involved in working the cases I've worked. If you learn something, buy me a cheeseburger and we're square. I just want the information out there, I'm not trying to make a living at this, and I don't have a brand to sell.

[MVS]

I can only tell people what I've seen prosecuted, what has not been prosecuted, and why. I try to explain bright line, fuzzy area, bright line as far as 'good shoot' vs 'bad shoot' and the like. I use real examples to illustrate it, and will say what factors the screening prosecutor considered.

I'd also add, I don't do handgun training. I don't think I'm to the level of handgun proficiency where I have any business training others in that regard, although frankly in most open enrollment classes just a grasp of grip fundamentals would help most people out tremendously.

I'm also just using myself as an example, I'm not soliciting for students. I have no idea when we'll have time to run the class again. I sincerely appreciate the people who've reached out to me, and if you find yourself in Indiana, PM me and I'd be willing to just sit down and talk about some of the lessons involved in working the cases I've worked. If you learn something, buy me a cheeseburger and we're square. I just want the information out there, I'm not trying to make a living at this, and I don't have a brand to sell.

Bit of a thread drift.

Folks, while BBI and I have had our disagreements on another forum over usually small things, I am impressed and very much appreciate the contribution he makes to help otherwise clueless people become informed with good solid real life observations. He doesn't have to put this info out there, and the majority of people in his position don't.

[Dagga Boy]

LSP972-Yep, and when given the choice of ball and dummy drills and bullseye targets versus push ups on AK's, swat rolls, explosions and zombie targets, and they win in today's world. Especially, if learning high speed shooting with real commandos. The hard thing for me was deciding that it is not worth wanting those folks as students. It is frustrating to watch folks doing things wrong. Now, like many other things in the world, I just don't care. Want to do a shoot house with a bunch of folks who have not mastered basic marksmanship or gun handling shooting around you....great, enjoy the experience.

Vman-the fact is there are a ton of folks with a lot of YouTube material that attorney's would have a field day with in court. Also, I have had the reasonable standard of use of force with many folks, and it is surprising how many do not grasp the basics. Also, the amount of crap spewed in classes is obscene. Every time a "former/active cop" telsls someone to pull a body in the house if you shoot them outside, God kills liters of puppies. The former mil folks discussing rules of engagement for people in the US, or discussing wound ballistics when many (outside a very small group) have only experienced wounding mechanisms by FMJ/Ball ammunition. There is a ton of folks out there that could do great harm when talking to an investigator, or in a deposition on your behalf.

Another observation is that many folks now want to train with a certain personality and getting an autographed certificate as the goal rather than actually train and learn something. Customer driven market, and many are capitalizing on that. Good for them, welcome to America.