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Thread: Training Priorities for H2H Integration - one perspective

  1. #11
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    I've been training in a TMA, Okinawan Goju, for a lot of years and I feel it can be highly effective -- depending on the individual. However I highly recommend adding methods from other disciplines -- grappling, wrestling, boxing -- to TMA training. A Goju black belt I have trained for several years is a good wrestler and he has helped me quite a bit in that regard.

  2. #12
    Member StraitR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatchetman View Post
    Not Cecil.
    While I appreciate you taking the time to respond, and I do get where you're coming from, you've basically said that you do not offer guidance and opinions because you're concerned with backlash. That, and your warning signs are based on having experience, which is no help to a novice. Lastly, as you pointed out, you're not Cecil.

    I asked how a beginner can recognize the quality of a program, and for an opinion based on the instructors of the school I linked. I don't go there, so I have no skin in the game or reason for butthurt. I'm curious if Cecil thought it looked like a "legit program", as referenced in his comment below. Based on his overall statements of the need to qualify a program, I think it's a fair question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post

    First, what is available to you? It would be stupid of me to tell someone to go do BJJ if all they had around them was a guy who got his blue belt online and has never trained with a high level instructor. Or if that gym by your office advertising MMA was actually run by a guy whose background was only kenpo and another guy who was a joke as a blue belt (a real gym BTW. They actually thought they knew what they were talking about). If the choice is between a top judo program and someone teaching Muay Thai who has never really sparred, then go with the legit program.
    Let's not cloud up this thread with semantics. If you disagree and must comment, we can discuss it via PM's.
    Last edited by StraitR; 09-23-2015 at 09:33 AM. Reason: grammar

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheap Shot View Post
    Very thought provoking info for me. I've got limited time, existing injuries, low self awareness and bad judgment. The only gym available geographically offers BJJ and boxing.

    Not sure if should start with boxing or BJJ. Would a 3 month on 3 month off schedule alternating make any sense? Or just talk to the instructors, get there input, make a decision and stick with it for at least a year?

    My gut instinct, based on my own personal journey as well as seeing a lot of people train over the years says that 3 months, especially as a beginner is not enough time to absorb any understanding. I feel 6 months is the absolute minimum for most people to begin to grasp the concepts and mental structure of a fighting system. You could have the start of an okay boxing game in that time frame (providing you are in a gym that has legit boxing instruction), and you could just begin to start being comfortable in bad positions in BJJ.

    I would actually think about a year as building the framework for a beginning functional level. Less, and you may miss some important parts to truly "get it".
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  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by StraitR View Post
    Great info, thank you for taking the time Cecil. The other H2H thread has enlightened me to the fact that a clear lack of training/knowledge in this area is definitely a hole in my defense game, and I want to change that. Part of your post here touched on some of my concerns regarding selecting a gym and it's associated instructor. While far from an expert, I do have some movement and striking experience from a few years of instruction in MT. That said, I have ZERO knowledge base when it comes to ground fighting, so I thought to look there first.

    So my question, how does someone with very little experience in these matters qualify a gym and/or it's instructors to be of good quality?

    Specific example, a quick search of my AO shows the following BJJ gym...

    http://www.mountdorabjjacademy.com

    Under instructors, they list Master David Iturrino (BIO) with the lineage: Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie > Carlson Gracie > Francisco Albuquerque > Roberto Abreu > Todd Cutler > David Iturrino

    Aside from the name Gracie, I have no idea who any of those guys are or if I should or shouldn't be impressed. So, worth my time, or should I keep shopping?

    Thanks

    That is definitely a tough problem. It was not so bad years ago when BJJ was still growing. It was easy to know who was legit and who was not. The positive part of the boom in popularity of BJJ is that it is easier than ever to find a gym. The negative is that it is harder to know who is real.

    My rule of thumb when I don't know anything about a gym is this: Does the head instructor maintain a relationship with a mentor (preferably the one who has given him the majority of his belts)? Does he compete (not whether he wins or not, but just that he is confident in his belt that he will appear publicly among other peers)? And does he bring in people for seminars (this can say he is looking to learn and interact with a wide variety of other peers)? I also like to see if the focus on the gym is to be inclusive of new people, or do they sell themselves as a bad ass fight school looking for more bad ass fighters? If they are inclusive, it speaks to me that they are focused on the heart of the art, and will most likely be diligent at teaching fundamentals, regardless of whether they like to compete or not. And at the heart of it is this - when they are on the mats, are they working the things that I expect to see in BJJ - i.e. highly functional moves done regularly against resisting pressure?

    Looking at the website of that school seems like it is at least worth a shot to me. Nothing raises any red flags, and I think the worst that can happen is you waste a bit of time on a couple of test sessions. I would try them if it was me. Let me know how it goes, or if you need any further input.
    Last edited by Cecil Burch; 09-23-2015 at 12:33 PM.
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  5. #15
    Member Hatchetman's Avatar
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    While I appreciate you taking the time to respond, and I do get where you're coming from, you've basically said that you do not offer guidance and opinions because you're concerned with backlash. That, and your warning signs are based on having experience, which is no help to a novice. Lastly, as you pointed out, you're not Cecil.
    Well alrighty then.

    Truth be told I'm not particularly concerned with backlash, which the disdain I showed TMAs in my previous post might indicate, as teaching MAs is not my day job and I stopped for the most part hanging out on MA forums and so don't contend with the endless cycles of butthurt and my sensi can whup your's silliness. I was however trying to subtly suggest that asking a respected instructor to make those sorts of judgements on a public forum puts said instructor in an awkward position. But worry not, I won't try to make a point subtly in the future where you are concerned.

    I asked how a beginner can recognize the quality of a program, and for an opinion based on the instructors of the school I linked. I don't go there, so I have no skin in the game or reason for butthurt. I'm curious if Cecil thought it looked like a "legit program", as referenced in his comment below. Based on his overall statements of the need to qualify a program, I think it's a fair question.
    And I answered the question based on the judo I started training in the 4th grade through the various TMAs I took, then the TB, BJJ, FMA mix I spent the most time with to the combatives I currently train as my 6th decade looms: "does this school allow me to practice realistic skills in context under gradually increasing pressure?" If you don't like the answer oh well, it's the internet. Surely there's someone out there willing to say the things you want to hear.

    As for recitations of lineages . . . I'm sure Rex Kwon Do can recite an impressive one too, but it's really what happens out on the training mat that reveals an instructor's abilities. I've trained with plenty of folks who don't have impressive resumes but can bang and teach, while others have collected bits of paper off dozens of instructors and seminars but can't teach a cat to lick. If you want to get out a dowsing rod and point it at linages that's your biz, but I think empiric methods best found on the mat are far more predictive.
    "I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Lets start with typewriters."

    Frank Lloyd Wright

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by 125 mph View Post
    Not Cecil, but pretty sure that means Muay Thai and Traditional Martial Arts (karate, tae kwon do, etc).

    Yes, sorry for the abbreviations. I type pretty slow and my brain runs ahead of my fingers so abbreviations help me sometimes, but I forget not everyone is familiar with all of them. I will try to watch that in the future.
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  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by 125 mph View Post
    Cecil, I'd like to ask about IFWA, do you have any general thoughts you'd like to share on the subject?

    Boy, that is a whole 'nother can of worms. I could go on for a longggg time about that. The main thing I would emphasize right now is that positional control is paramount to effective deployment of a weapon in an entanglement. If you don't have positional dominance long enough, than it is a drag race, and you are bringing a weapon into a situation where by definition the other guy has some superiority (that is why you need the weapon - if he did not have that superiority you could get away without the tool). Even if you have a blazing fast draw, you are still in a deficit to the bad guy, and that deficit needs to be addressed first.

    One of the reasons on the chart above I put IFWA at #6 was that the other stuff needs to be at an okay level to ensure a reasonable level of success at IFWA. You cannot train the in-fight weapon access in isolation enough to overcome that.

    125mph - was there something specific I could address for you?
    Last edited by Cecil Burch; 09-23-2015 at 12:31 PM.
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  8. #18
    Member StraitR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil Burch View Post
    That is definitely a tough problem. It was not so bad years ago when BJJ was still growing. It was easy to know who was legit and who was not. The positive part of the boom in popularity of BJJ is that it is easier than ever to find a gym. The negative is that it is harder to know who is real.

    My rule of thumb when I don't know anything about a gym is this: Does the head instructor maintain a relationship with a mentor (preferably the one who has given him the majority of his belts)? Does he compete (not whether he wins or not, but just that he is confident in his belt that he will appear publicly among other peers)? And does he bring in people for seminars (this can say he is looking to learn and interact with a wide variety of other peers)? I also like to see if the focus on the gym is to be inclusive of new people, or do they sell themselves as a bad ass fight school looking for more bad ass fighters? If they are inclusive, it speaks to me that they are focused on the heart of the art, and will most likely be diligent at teaching fundamentals, regardless of whether they like to compete or not. And at the heart of it is this - when they are on the mats, are they working the things that I expect to see in BJJ - i.e. highly functional moves done regularly against resisting pressure?

    Looking at the website of that school seems like it is at least worth a shot to me. Nothing raises any red flags, and I think the worst that can happen is you waste a bit of time on a couple of test sessions. I would try them if it was me. Let me know how it goes, or if you need any further input.
    I can certainly see the difficulty, and Hatchetman made some valid points as well. The second paragraph is extremely helpful. The gym is between my home and office, so I'll swing by soon and take a look. Appreciate the response, Cecil.

  9. #19
    Member StraitR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hatchetman View Post
    Well alrighty then.

    Truth be told I'm not particularly concerned with backlash, which the disdain I showed TMAs in my previous post might indicate, as teaching MAs is not my day job and I stopped for the most part hanging out on MA forums and so don't contend with the endless cycles of butthurt and my sensi can whup your's silliness. I was however trying to subtly suggest that asking a respected instructor to make those sorts of judgements on a public forum puts said instructor in an awkward position. But worry not, I won't try to make a point subtly in the future where you are concerned.



    And I answered the question based on the judo I started training in the 4th grade through the various TMAs I took, then the TB, BJJ, FMA mix I spent the most time with to the combatives I currently train as my 6th decade looms: "does this school allow me to practice realistic skills in context under gradually increasing pressure?" If you don't like the answer oh well, it's the internet. Surely there's someone out there willing to say the things you want to hear.

    As for recitations of lineages . . . I'm sure Rex Kwon Do can recite an impressive one too, but it's really what happens out on the training mat that reveals an instructor's abilities. I've trained with plenty of folks who don't have impressive resumes but can bang and teach, while others have collected bits of paper off dozens of instructors and seminars but can't teach a cat to lick. If you want to get out a dowsing rod and point it at linages that's your biz, but I think empiric methods best found on the mat are far more predictive.

    When you present yourself as an expert, experienced, or person of knowledge and offer your suggestive input on a the same subject, you are opening yourself up for those seeking that knowledge to ask questions. Be prepared to back up your statements, and establish a position, or don't offer up the help. This is especially true on PF.

    Suggesting to people that have no experience in the subject matter that getting anything less than quality instruction is a waste of time, and then not be willing to define what basic qualities to look for is ambiguous at best.

    Again, thanks for the comments, and if you read my response to Cecil, I stated that you had some valid points, which was before I read this post. Speaking of butthurt, you can feel however you choose, but I didn't say I don't want or appreciate your feedback. But, be mindful of offering up your own opinion before the solicitation was addressed by the person in which it was asked.

  10. #20
    Member Dropkick's Avatar
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    What kind of insight can you provide about the transitions between areas during a fight? Especially when the transition is happening to you, instead of by your choice.

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