Each point down will now equal 1 second added to your time...

[orionz06]

More precisely, per Turd, ass hats living in their moms' basements.

If that post was an attempt to call in close air support, it appears the ordinance missed the target.

Until you post an ambiguous lifeline I think he's got you beat.

[PPGMD]

More precisely, per Turd, ass hats living in their moms' basements.

But we don't even have basements in my state. Am I supposed to be living in the crawl space?

And Thursday through Saturday I will be competing in a match that will have tasks much much more difficult than the hardest IDPA match I've ever shot.

25 yard strong hand only plate rack is among them.

[BCL]

A friend of mine who is an IDPA Master shooter and professional working in the industry read through this thread. He asked me to post this.

Cody,
I've been reading through the 38 page thread on the pistol forum site on the 1s scoring. A few things came to mind. I wouldn't personally consider idpa training per se, but it certainly does encourage principles which may be useful to you in a deadly force confrontation. Whether said principles apply in a specific situation can be determined by the shooter, IF he is proficient enough to make that decision and execute those skills properly. Speaking from someone who has been in gunfights I can tell you that the basic idpa principles are sound. Discretion of when and where to use those in the execution phase is the challenging part. We look at all the things stress does to our bodies during a potentially life ending altercation - will idpa save your ass? Not completely. Not even mostly. But if you work, train, and develop/ maintain proficiency, it can certainly be a part of your base survival. And sometimes all you need is a slightly bigger base than your opponent to survive.
Look at all the other bullshit in this thread - cover is not really cover (material wise), concealment is being gamed, we have no elected officials, they can cry about the details all they want. These ass hats can continue their rants and nay saying until their mom's kick them out of the basement because the laundry isn't going to do itself. Bottom line is yes, these are all games. But you've got people learning the mechanics of shooting (if only by watching and asking questions), you have repetitive gun handling, and you have promotion of shooting sports. There's no expectation you'll shoot idpa and instantly get accepted into your local SWAT team. But I'd rather be out performing a difficult task under pressure then spending my time whining on the Internet about how life isn't fair, or how people won't renew their idpa memberships. Please don't. If it were up to me your already be banned for being a douche.
Cody, Thanks for maintaining some semblance of professionalism and sticking up for your points.
-Turd Furgeson

[Emphasis added]

A whole lot of possibles in there. The last sentence I bolded is a pretty good reason for shooting USPSA as well, with the added challenge of figuring out how to shoot the stage yourself.

If by basic IDPA principles, your buddy means learning to shoot well under simulated stress, plus the knowledge that using cover (actual cover) can be useful if you have it available, then I don't think anyone is arguing with that.

That being said, as soon as you introduce a timer into the equation, any semblance of realism goes out the window, as people wanting to win a game will take risks they wouldn't take if it was a two-way range.

[Clusterfrack]

Look at all the other bullshit in this thread - cover is not really cover (material wise), concealment is being gamed, we have no elected officials, they can cry about the details all they want. These ass hats can continue their rants and nay saying until their mom's kick them out of the basement because the laundry isn't going to do itself. Bottom line is yes, these are all games. But you've got people learning the mechanics of shooting (if only by watching and asking questions), you have repetitive gun handling, and you have promotion of shooting sports. There's no expectation you'll shoot idpa and instantly get accepted into your local SWAT team. But I'd rather be out performing a difficult task under pressure then spending my time whining on the Internet about how life isn't fair, or how people won't renew their idpa memberships. Please don't. If it were up to me your already be banned for being a douche.
Cody, Thanks for maintaining some semblance of professionalism and sticking up for your points.
-Turd Furgeson

Sheesh. There's not much professionalism in that quote--just a lot of butthurt about what I found to be a very interesting (and at times amusing) discussion thread. I can't think of a more professional group than the experts here on P-F to discuss IDPA's claims about its value in training defensive shooters.

[GJM]

But we don't even have basements in my state. Am I supposed to be living in the crawl space?

And Thursday through Saturday I will be competing in a match that will have tasks much much more difficult than the hardest IDPA match I've ever shot.

25 yard strong hand only plate rack is among them.

What happens in New Mexico, stays in New Mexico.

[John Hearne]

I just don't see a game ever being anything other than a game, and no scoring will make it realistic.

First absolute realism is impossible, we all agree on this. The question becomes what is more realistic, an emphasis on speed or an emphasis on accuracy. As someone who spent a lot of their time studying gunfights, I see very few people failing because they couldn't shoot fast enough. I find a lot of people failing because they weren't accurate enough.

While not perfect, the scoring system is an incentive/disincenitve system. If you incentivize something you tend get more of it, if you disincentize something you tend to get less of it. The scoring system seems to incentivize more careful shooting and disincentivize shooting faster than you can guarantee a hit.

Consider the opposite of the proposed change. If we removed all penalties for missed shots, don't you think people would simply fire the required number of rounds for a stage as quickly as possible without regard for hits? If we accept this premise, then increasing the penalty for missing should make folks work to shoot more accurately.

As a very wise man says "shoot as fast as you can guarantee your hits but no faster." The change in scoring seems to move things more that way from my perspective.

[PPGMD]

What happens in New Mexico, stays in New Mexico.

PPC is over. I don't shoot it, but some of my friends do.

[GJM]

First absolute realism is impossible, we all agree on this. The question becomes what is more realistic, an emphasis on speed or an emphasis on accuracy. As someone who spent a lot of their time studying gunfights, I see very few people failing because they couldn't shoot fast enough. I find a lot of people failing because they weren't accurate enough.

While not perfect, the scoring system is an incentive/disincenitve system. If you incentivize something you tend get more of it, if you disincentize something you tend to get less of it. The scoring system seems to incentivize more careful shooting and disincentivize shooting faster than you can guarantee a hit.

Consider the opposite of the proposed change. If we removed all penalties for missed shots, don't you think people would simply fire the required number of rounds for a stage as quickly as possible without regard for hits? If we accept this premise, then increasing the penalty for missing should make folks work to shoot more accurately.

As a very wise man says "shoot as fast as you can guarantee your hits but no faster." The change in scoring seems to move things more that way from my perspective.

I thought we previously beat this point to death. You can not shoot to guarantee hits, while still shooting at a relevant speed. You need to shoot for A/-0 hits.

I am at Gunsite now. The school has transitioned from believing in the power of a caliber like .45, as it did in the days of Jeff Cooper, and shifted to the approach of expecting to shoot a number of handgun shots, regardless of caliber, to solve the problem. Accuracy is a good thing, but since we can't rely on a single bullet to solve solve the problem, it sure seems like hits and time are relevant.

I think that USPSA is much more accuracy intensive than IDPA, purely because of the difficulty of the shooting problems.

[rob_s]

Oh dear! I guess we have no legitimate complaints, not even the not being able to participate one. What a bunch of dicks we are!

Lololololol

That's not really an accurate statement. Why can't you participate? Because of your carry method? That's not an issue of them not letting you participate as much as an issue of you choosing not to participate.

[rob_s]

Don't feel bad for me, I can shoot and I can compete just fine

Make no mistake I think the guys in my area throw great IDPA matches. For the penalties I'm not referring to myself so much as the "average Joe" getting reload penalties, cover penalties, order of engagement penalties, FTN penalties, failure to shoot the stage the right way procedurals, the list goes on. These aren't fun, if that's indeed IDPA's end goal. If training is the goal, I'd like to see them actually train correctly and remove the timer as needed.

IDPA really is a jack of all trades master of none sport.

Again, this leaves me really impressed with my home club, and more convinced than ever that most people are basing their entire opinion of IDPA on their own, local, bad experiences.

At the club I shot with, new shooters are mentored, encouraged, put through a safety test, encouraged to seek training, and given the opportunity to obtain training from the club itself, as well as suggestions on where to seek out further instruction beyond what the club can offer.