LE UOF Video thread

[GuanoLoco]

OK I'm a civvie, don't know shit about how it is on the street, and I wasn't there but WTActualF?!?!

Opinion-rant

I see a complete lack of fire control discipline, a crazy number of shots fired (most at an apparent corpse) and worst of all - exactly zero awareness as a group of a significant number of innocents directly in the line of fire.

Bad day to be a civilian MYOB in Atlantic City I guess.

The "GG" front left, who appears to be wearing body armor and has a direct line of fire on the armed BG, immediately turns tail when threatened and runs away. He does this while randomly firing a string of un-aimed shots behind him in the general direction of the BG and pedestrians crossing the street. That dude would scare the crap out of me as a fellow LEO or civilian on the street. IMHO he and the whole group need to be disciplined and retrained.

My default response to getting caught in any such action - get down / find hard cover. It ain't the movies and the "GG's" here are frankly far more terrifying than the BG.

/opinion-rant

Professional opinions appreciated.

[Lon]

The video or my post?

Sorry. The video. I agree with what you wrote but have some additional issues.

First, why the hell is the guy whose dash cam this is passing every other swinging dick to be the first in line? He did it twice. Once going the wrong way at the traffic circle looking intersection just so he can be first. It's not even his pursuit, he didn't start it, so WTF? Was there a supervisor there that witnessed it and let it continue? Our policy prohibits just about everything in the video. Number of cars involved, passing others (without being directed to), unmarked cars being involved in the pursuit when marked cars are available just to name a few.

Second, the number of shots after he was down and out. The shots continued for about 17 seconds after he hit the ground. I'll give em some time to account for the decision making process. I'll be generous and give em 5-7 seconds to realize he's outta the fight. But after that I'm concerned with the amount of shots being fired. I can't tell from the video if he still has a gun in his hand or not.

Third, the bystanders behind the bad guy. Pretty self explanatory.

If I was investigating this shooting or was their supervisor I'd have some hard questions for them and the training staff.

[Hambo]

He was definitely down for the count and they were still putting rounds in him. You can also see rounds hitting at the curb between him and innocents behind him.

[voodoo_man]

Sorry. The video. I agree with what you wrote but have some additional issues.

First, why the hell is the guy whose dash cam this is passing every other swinging dick to be the first in line? He did it twice. Once going the wrong way at the traffic circle looking intersection just so he can be first. It's not even his pursuit, he didn't start it, so WTF? Was there a supervisor there that witnessed it and let it continue? Our policy prohibits just about everything in the video. Number of cars involved, passing others (without being directed to), unmarked cars being involved in the pursuit when marked cars are available just to name a few.

Second, the number of shots after he was down and out. The shots continued for about 17 seconds after he hit the ground. I'll give em some time to account for the decision making process. I'll be generous and give em 5-7 seconds to realize he's outta the fight. But after that I'm concerned with the amount of shots being fired. I can't tell from the video if he still has a gun in his hand or not.

Third, the bystanders behind the bad guy. Pretty self explanatory.

If I was investigating this shooting or was their supervisor I'd have some hard questions for them and the training staff.

Totally agree.

Our policy only allows for two vehicles to be involved and any other vehicles to Shadow from a safe distance. One is lead one is comm, that's it. Everyone else better be super ninja like if they want in on the pursuit. No unmarked vehicles allowed to pursue.

I agree as well on the shooting, once the guy got turned off and started his hand gestures of the disabled, it was time to stop shooting.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I've been CIT trained for a few years now, it's good training and all but it puts you in harm's way first. I don't have an issue with this, at all, but I'm not worried about my actions. The fact that the general public believe that we can just magically de-escalate a wired up, chemically unbalanced person is very short sighted.

They believe that because the media has told them that, largely based on things our departments, our administrations have told them and we haven't corrected those beliefs.

[voodoo_man]

They believe that because the media has told them that, largely based on things our departments, our administrations have told them and we haven't corrected those beliefs.

Every time this topic is brought up, it should be pointed out that a good portion of LEO OIS are because of mentally unstable people.

[Peally]

Every time this topic is brought up, it should be pointed out that a good portion of LEO OIS are because of mentally unstable people.

Institutions are evil bro.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Out of curiousity, checked the Washington Post fatal OIS data base for the last few years. Whether we think it is spot on or not is immaterial, a flipping news paper is doing what the Bureau (via othe UCR) should have been doing.

2015 - 254 known to have mental health issues / 737 that did not or unknown;
2016 241 known to have mental health issues / 722 that did not or unknown;
2017 YTD - 132 was m/h issues / 427 unknown or did not have any issues.

Roughly a quarter, consistently, that is a good chunk.

The mental health institutions of the 50s, 60s were, by all reports, evil. The problem is that society destroyed them with no effort made to create anything appropriate to replace them.

Can't recall if it has been discussed on P-F orr not, but a decent read to help people understand some of the "controversial" shootings is "In Context" by Nick Selby, Ben Singleton, and Ed Flosi.

[psalms144.1]

Totally agree.

Our policy only allows for two vehicles to be involved and any other vehicles to Shadow from a safe distance. One is lead one is comm, that's it. Everyone else better be super ninja like if they want in on the pursuit. No unmarked vehicles allowed to pursue.

I agree as well on the shooting, once the guy got turned off and started his hand gestures of the disabled, it was time to stop shooting.

I really try to NEVER judge someone else's actions when their having their gunfight, as no one but that person knows what was going on in his/her head. Having said that, the pursuit was a royal cluster, as you correctly pointed out.

Moreover, the shooting after the BG went to the ground and appeared TO ME to cease to be a threat was very troubling. I stopped counting at 40 shots AFTER it appeared TO ME that the BG was no longer active. The points regarding backstop are spot on as well...

[voodoo_man]

Good shoot.

Camera officer needs to hurry up and reload, yes there is stuff happening but reloading then getting back in the fight and/or getting to cover should be the two most important objectives.

TQ application, fantastically quick, I don't know what type of ankle pouch he has but it worked well (they always do) - biggest issue there is NO GLOVES. Always wear gloves, always.

Lots of cursing and screaming, to be expected and perfectly acceptable.