Fixed Time Courses, Are they Beneficial?

[BN]

I recently shot 2 DotW. The Defoor Pistol 1 and 400. Both had fixed time strings that caused me trouble. Small targets with tight times.

The par times threw me off. I used to like it when they would have fixed time standards at IPSC/IDPA matches. The strings were all things where I knew how fast/slow I needed to shoot to maximize my score. These were all new par times to me with small targets. I'm used to the generous scoring areas of USPSA/IDPA targets. I shot the course a couple more times. I think I could get a much better score after practicing the times to get them in my head. I believe that I could then shoot it cold after a few days lay off and do well.

I am putting this statement out for thought and discussion. How beneficial are par time courses? If we are practicing for a shooting competition where par times are used then it is good practice. If we are practicing for self defense, how do we know how much time we are going to have? Wouldn't it be better to learn to shoot as fast as necessary to make the shots?

taadski and Clobbersauras both gave good replies when I asked this in my Journal.

Also, what accuracy standards should we strive for? When I shot the FAM, I realized I had to relax my personal accuracy standards to pass.

Will competition shooters and tactical shooters have different answers?

[voodoo_man]

Since I do not shoot competition I cannot give any insight if it provides for any positives in that arena.

I use par times specifically for getting faster and standards.

For getting faster, for example I put the par time for 1 second and then after warming up in training draws from concealment dry, I will make the par shorter, .9 then .8 then .7 and so forth. Sometimes if I am feeling snazzy I set it to .5 and try to perform the action before the par buzzes.

As for standards, I use par times to gauge my ability in a timed standard form, always ran cold. It is a way to measure if you are getting better or worse with your training.

As for defensive training, you are training for yourself or better, the "kill your clone" concept.

[Leroy]

For training I use par times as the absolute time limit. Meaning no matter how crappy the rep is I hit the par time and try to figure out what I need to fix and acclimate myself to that speed. It can get ugly. If I had to estimate, I would say I spend 25% of my practice doing this, mostly in the Winter and Spring and towards Summer/Fall I am working more on consistency to hone the speed gains.

[Ptrlcop]

Par times on tests like the Defoor are to measure skill no build it.

As to training, or times are one way we induce stress into the square range. Nothing more or less.

[GJM]

Since I do not shoot competition I cannot give any insight if it provides for any positives in that arena.

I use par times specifically for getting faster and standards.

For getting faster, for example I put the par time for 1 second and then after warming up in training draws from concealment dry, I will make the par shorter, .9 then .8 then .7 and so forth. Sometimes if I am feeling snazzy I set it to .5 and try to perform the action before the par.

While you may not shoot USPSA competition, it sure seems like you shoot Timmie competition.

OP, back to par times, I think anytime you have to do someone else's drill, on someone else's time, it is valuable. The entire Rogers School program is a fixed time exercise.

[LSP552]

I believe the timer has it's place. It's a great tool to measure progress and to increase your speed. Everyone needs to know where their ragged edge is. Pushing this can help move the that edge a bit farther out.

Having said that, I dial the speed back when I stop meeting my accuracy standard for the drill, target or environment. The vast majority of my practice is not on the clock. When it is, I'm a big believer in using decreasing PAR times.

Accuracy standards can vary depending on what you need to accomplish.

[Clobbersaurus]

This was my post in Bill's training journal:

Bill, that is a very interesting question and I would encourage you to post it in the Marksmanship and Gun Handling forum. I think it would generate some very good discussion.

I agree with taadski when shooting for score or competition.

Take this for what it's worth as I'm just a duffer; I think hard PAR times in drills or courses of fire can be very beneficial as a measure of performance to push a shooter harder to attain a specific standard. I know a bunch competition shooters that would have a very hard time breaking a sub 7 second FAST, and would also fail Defoor's standards. I know far more "tactical" guys who can't meet those standards. I also believe that practising the skills needed to meet those standards would make both groups of people far better shooters.

I know that practising the components that make up the FAST, has helped me immensely as a shooter. Hitting a sub 5 second FAST motivates me to improve unlike any other shooting test . And it's the technical shooting skill needed coupled with the hard PAR standard that makes that test so beguiling. I tend to believe that pushing to hit PAR times is the most significant factor for improvements I've seen in the speed and consistency of my manipulations.

[voodoo_man]

While you may not shoot USPSA competition, it sure seems like you shoot Timmie competition.

Youll have to forgive me, I dont know what you are talking about.

[HopetonBrown]

I'm aligned with Gabe's competition/Timmie clan, but I'm just a lowly SSP Exp and have done a bunch o' tactical classes. The Defoor is much easier after you've done it a few times. You figure out how fast you need to go. The par times aren't too bad. The FAMS test isn't very difficult, as the accuracy requirements are pretty lax (equivalent to the A/C or Down 0/-1). As long as you can get out of the holster quick enough it's easy to pass.

FAST is more like competition, go as fast as you can while still getting it in the scoring zones.

2 or more guys shooting FAST or FAMS is a Timmie competition.

[EricM]

I like the way taadski put it - "take due note and then flat out ignore them...shoot as fast as YOU can shoot".

I think context is important when considering a fixed time drill. Who is supposed to be able to meet that par, under what circumstances, with what equipment? A new shooter with a day of professional instruction, anyone competent enough to carry a handgun, someone who dry fires at least twice a week for six months, a Master-class shooter in USPSA? Standards have their role, but depending on who they are targeted at, they may be easy, challenging, or completely out of reach to a given shooter.

Personally, I find it valuable to know what a "very good" time is on a drill (or draw, reload, transition, etc.) -- to assign a very loose definition, a time achievable by a dedicated but not professional shooter. Helps me understand what's possible, long term. It's too soon for me to know if I'll ever be able to pass the Garcia Dot Drill, make Master, earn a FAST coin, etc., so instead of treating it as pass/fail I'll just record my time, whatever it may be, and keep chipping away at it.