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Thread: "Rolled" and racked?????

  1. #21
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    I'm not really a roll kind of kid.
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    kimbers have more issues than time magazine.

  2. #22
    The original version that I was traditionally taught and what I saw for many many years was "Tap, rack, bang". Wheras on a failure to fire you tap to seat the mag, rack the slide, fire. It then went to "tap, rack, reassess". In other words don't just fire (bang), but rather reassess your target, then fire if necessary. As if that was really not understood to begin with, but I get the issues.

    I then saw it progress into "tap, roll, rack, reassess". Where people were doing it in a more robotic step by step sequence. Literally tapping the mag with a vertical weapon, rolling the weapon outbound then racking the slide. I have been teaching for a long time to just consolidate the "roll and tap" into one movement. Think of the position the weapon ends up in a proper reload. Canting the weapon with a short movement back into the workspace and taping the magazine at the same time. Looks like a reload. Leave the weapon hand in this position and run the slide with an overhand manipulation. A bit more efficient and easy to teach as it is a familiar movement.

    Leaving the gun more vertical isn't too bad of a thing but muzzle slightly up, ejection port somewhat downward does help. What we don't like to see is ejection port up, for those that pinch and slingshot the slide. I noted that some agencies / organizations who used a Beretta or a 5906 where racking the slide was going ejection port up (right hander) and pinching the slide like a slingshot and using that type of technique. The ejection port up causes issues. We ran into this when transitioning over a couple thousand officers who were ingrained in ejection port up slingshotting due to the safety on the 5906. However when going to the Glock we noted that those who tried to clear malfunctions (we set them up with dummy rounds) had too high of a failure rate for our comfort. We saw ejected dummy rounds / casings end back up in the chamber, sometimes backwards. This most often occurred due to a short stroke of the slide.

    So we do teach a "roll/tap (ejection port slightly downward, slight muzzle elevation), rack, reassess".
    Last edited by Surf; 09-03-2015 at 01:22 PM.

  3. #23
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    I teach Tap-Roll/Rack-Bang/Reasses/whatever, because I have seen some really horrible stoppages made by the shooter trying to Tap-Rack-Bang and not using gravity to good effect, leaving brass in the ejection port, etc. I liken the ejection port to a trash can, you need to tip the can over to dump the trash.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    I teach Tap-Roll/Rack-Bang/Reasses/whatever, because I have seen some really horrible stoppages made by the shooter trying to Tap-Rack-Bang and not using gravity to good effect, leaving brass in the ejection port, etc. I liken the ejection port to a trash can, you need to tip the can over to dump the trash.
    That makes a lot of sense.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Surf View Post
    The original version that I was traditionally taught and what I saw for many many years was "Tap, rack, bang". Wheras on a failure to fire you tap to seat the mag, rack the slide, fire. It then went to "tap, rack, reassess". In other words don't just fire (bang), but rather reassess your target, then fire if necessary. As if that was really not understood to begin with, but I get the issues.
    Exactly. With us, it morphed into "Tap, Rack, Ready". And "slingshotting" the slide was (and still is, AFAIK; speaking of LSP's program, of course) a big no-no… because, one of the original authorized pistols was the 5904/5906, with the attendant issues that present with this technique on a pistol with a Walther safety. Overhand grasp all the way, for us.

    .

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    I have seen some really horrible stoppages made by the shooter trying to Tap-Rack-Bang and not using gravity to good effect, leaving brass in the ejection port, etc.
    Dunno, we simply never saw this; with ANY type of pistol. After I re-wrote the Firearms Procedural Order in 1994, it opened up our program to quite a few different pistols. What I was mainly working with were Sigs and 3rd-gen S&Ws, but I saw enough Glocks, Berettas, and Rugers to know.

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  7. #27
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Haggard View Post
    I teach Tap-Roll/Rack-Bang/Reasses/whatever, because I have seen some really horrible stoppages made by the shooter trying to Tap-Rack-Bang and not using gravity to good effect, leaving brass in the ejection port, etc. I liken the ejection port to a trash can, you need to tip the can over to dump the trash.
    Quote Originally Posted by LSP972 View Post
    Dunno, we simply never saw this; with ANY type of pistol. After I re-wrote the Firearms Procedural Order in 1994, it opened up our program to quite a few different pistols. What I was mainly working with were Sigs and 3rd-gen S&Ws, but I saw enough Glocks, Berettas, and Rugers to know.

    .
    Interesting different experiences there. I've seen the same as Chuck. Lots of instances where the initial tap-rack (no roll) doesn't fix the original problem and causes a failure to extract/double feed, whereas many of those same instances are successfully cleared with tap-roll-rack.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSP972 View Post
    ... And "slingshotting" the slide was (and still is, AFAIK; speaking of LSP's program, of course) a big no-no… because, one of the original authorized pistols was the 5904/5906, with the attendant issues that present with this technique on a pistol with a Walther safety. Overhand grasp all the way, for us.
    I've always thought the "Walther safety" equipped guns were actually better suited to slingshotting rather than the overhand technique?

  9. #29
    Site Supporter Jay Cunningham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_White View Post
    Interesting different experiences there. I've seen the same as Chuck. Lots of instances where the initial tap-rack (no roll) doesn't fix the original problem and causes a failure to extract/double feed, whereas many of those same instances are successfully cleared with tap-roll-rack.
    That's my experience as well.

  10. #30
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    I was taught tap rack bang.

    How I handle a stoppage is, the gun is still out in front pretty much in it's firing position. I tap the mag and rack the slide at that point I usually know straight away if my gun is back up if it's not I strip the mag and rack the slide three times then reload. If my gun isn't running after that it won't be running without tools.
    Thinking about it I do roll a pistol when I strip the mag and rack the slide.

    I don't really spend any time looking at what type of stoppage I am having, I just whack things and pull on stuff till my gun works.
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    kimbers have more issues than time magazine.

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