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Thread: Ron Avery on the tactical vs competition false dichotomy.

  1. #21
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    I think in some cases people are talking past each other. In my mind there is nothing wrong with competing, and there are benefits to doing so. Yes, it's not realistic. Neither is dry firing. Yet most people believe there is a benefit to dry firing.

    It is my opinion that that competition shooting ALONE is insufficient. Most of the guys quoted here are saying it supplements or bolsters tactical training, not that it replaces it. That's where I'm at.

    You wouldn't expect to make a basketball team if all you did was practice a 3 point shot. You could be the world's best 3 point shooter, but if you can't run up and down the court, can't hit a free throw, can't guard your opponent, can't catch a rebound, etc. etc. you ain't making the team no matter how good at that one component you are. We all realize that while you may be a standout in one category of the game, you must be well rounded to be a truly good player. Competition shooting is practicing one aspect of real world encounters. The shooting part. Being good at the shooting part is important, no doubt. But there's a lot more to it, such as decision making, interrupting your opponent's OODA loop, etc. that you simply can't practice in competition.

  2. #22
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    It seems that there is a lot of agreement on this subject among the cognoscenti...it's the Cleeti who have the deafeningly controversial opinions. For instance, someone who doesn't train or compete because they will "point shoot" will do poorly when the balloon goes up. Compared to someone who regularly trains, uses the sights, can manipulate their gun quickly and call their shots will do better. Perhaps not ideal, and perhaps not even good enough but give that person triple digit training hours with a defensive shooting instructor and they stand the best chance...bad, good, best are the options I see myself having so why wouldn't I give myself every advantage.

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    Last edited by 45dotACP; 08-26-2015 at 12:09 PM.

  3. #23
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  4. #24
    No one, especially a big name instructor, going to diss gaming. It just wont happen as they are running a business.

    I was speaking from first hand experience of games not allowing setups of aiwb or that nature as well as other points.

    Recreating condition black is very doable, hell ive been there in training several times. The training value is incredible.

    Also the topic of discrimination has been passed over, as ive expected.
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  5. #25
    Mike Pannone is a Master in USPSA so I don't think it's a case of upsetting his client base.

  6. #26
    Member orionz06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    No one, especially a big name instructor, going to diss gaming. It just wont happen as they are running a business.

    I was speaking from first hand experience of games not allowing setups of aiwb or that nature as well as other points.

    Recreating condition black is very doable, hell ive been there in training several times. The training value is incredible.

    Also the topic of discrimination has been passed over, as ive expected.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    I was speaking from first hand experience of games not allowing setups of aiwb or that nature as well as other points.
    USPSA will let you do everything you've said you wanted in a gun game. So now it's up to you if you want to take advantage of the opportunity or not.

    Let's discuss target discrimination. What, exactly, would you have gun games do to make you discriminate between shoot and no shoot targets besides what they do now?

    You can forget about condition black (maybe condition brown?) in the shooting sports. That's flat out not going to happen.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    No one, especially a big name instructor, going to diss gaming. It just wont happen as they are running a business.

    I was speaking from first hand experience of games not allowing setups of aiwb or that nature as well as other points.

    Recreating condition black is very doable, hell ive been there in training several times. The training value is incredible.

    Also the topic of discrimination has been passed over, as ive expected.
    You can carry appendix in games like USPSA. Just shoot limited. You may not be super competitive, but you wouldn't be alone in doing it.

    As for your other topics: Well yeah, I won't learn how to clear rooms, drop terrorists, or even shoot it out in the parking lot with three shady dudes, but I don't shoot USPSA because I think I'll fly into a dynamic battlespace without cover and start laying down double alphas on tangos...or something. The idea of getting quality defensive training is a great thing. But it's pretty clear that a A class, M class or GM class shooter will have good transitions, good accuracy, and the ability to rapidly put bullets on target from strong and weak hand positions and call their shots.

    Better shooting is better shooting. It doesn't mean better cover, it doesn't mean better tactics, and it doesn't mean discrimination and without those things, the actual technical side of shooting doesn't matter...as much...but it still matters and when it comes to the technical side of shooting, a high level USPSA shooter will have an advantage.

    And that is hard to argue.

  9. #29
    I am getting a little tired of this old argument, but I guess it's like revolver vs. auto.

    I used to be a good shooter, and thought I was better than I was. Then I started competing and found out what a good shooter really is. I got a lot better as well. Most especially my ability to quickly process info and see quickly. Never hurt me on the tactical side either, you just can't let it take over your shooting/training life. There really are no valid arguments against doing SOME competition shooting, if you want to shoot better. Just don't do so much that it skews your priorities. That's where people go wrong.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by SLG View Post
    I am getting a little tired of this old argument, but I guess it's like revolver vs. auto.
    Same here.

    Great technical shooting skills are not a substitute for poor tactical skills.

    Great tactical skills are not a substitute for poor technical shooting skills.

    A question is often posed -- do you want technical or tactical skills? The answer should be both.
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