Ron Avery on the tactical vs competition false dichotomy.

[BaiHu]

Was a female that was about to retire and had no business being at the training.

Sims are great. I wish there was a competition-style setup that requires people to find and shoot people who are going to shoot them back, all with sims. That would be worth the price of admission

Like a KSTG with live "targets". I'd be all over that. Wait, isn't that called paintball?

[orionz06]

Gamers gonna praise gaming, gamer haters gonna hate on gaming. Seems perpetual. Oh well.


Competitive paintball is fun. It'll probably get me killed on my drive home.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alpha Sierra]

Most who know me, know I do not shoot competition or game in any way, to me it is an easy way to burn horribly bad reps - speed unloading, speed reholstering, throwing guns, zero discrimination, no use of cover or concealment, no scanning, wearing gamer rigs and the obvious issues I've talked about over the years.
You can certainly avoid doing any and all of the above in USPSA. You can unload and reholster as slowly as you like, as you are not on the clock. Throwing guns? WTF....I've never been to any legit shooting match where that was even remotely OK. You can use all the (simulated) cover and concealment that you want in the field course stages. It's not required that you do so, but it's also not prohibited. Same goes for scanning and gamer rigs. Scanning and assessing and duty or concealment rigs are not required, but they are also not prohibited.

People treat competition shooting like training.
Correction, some people (very few) treat competition as if it were training. Most of us treat it as an enjoyable sport.

The competitions I have RSO's at (only because they needed help no because I wanted to shoot them) nearly all the competitors, repeatedly, made tactical mistakes and refused to listen to a single word of advice on the matter, because their times would slow if they did things a different (tactical safe) way.
That's probably because they are treating the competition as a sport, and doing the things they can do within the rules to maximize their score; and not treating the competition as if it were some tactical exercise.

The other kicker for me is that many competitions do not allow to shoot "as you come" meaning if I show up with an AIWB rig and pocketing my reloads, they'll tell me I cannot shoot.
I can't speak for other shooting sport, but I know for a fact that you can shoot USPSA with your AWIB carry rig, just sign up for Limited (iron sights) or Open (if your pistol has an RMR) divisions and you'll be good to go. If you have any doubts, I'm sure Mr. White can clear them up as that is how he competes in USPSA.

Twice. That's a training thing, sure, but its really an adrenaline thing, that's condition black. You cannot replicate that or how you will function unless you actually find yourself in that situation through training, profession or street encounter. How many competition shooters go to condition black during training? How many have a spike in heart rate so high that they are on autopilot? Because that's what happens in real life and no amount of competition shooting will prepare someone for that. Tactical training and experience, will and has.
What kind of "tactical" training recreates the stress of being shot at, or you about to shoot someone, for real? Not trying to be a dick, just really curious. I thought the only way to get that level of stress is in a real life deadly force confrontation

Bottom line, no one will (or should) give you any crap if you decide to apply sound tactics to a sport shooting match, so long as you follow the safety rules and procedures.

By the same token, you shouldn't expect others to do as you would, when all they want out of it is a sporting competition.

[BehindBlueI's]

Simunitions and force on force training simulate it pretty well. FATS can seem very real, as well.

Going through a game run is one thing. Going through a real school with over a hundred role players, speakers echoing gun shots and screams, etc your brain forgets it isn't real pretty quick.

[GJM]

Simunitions and force on force training simulate it pretty well. FATS can seem very real, as well.

Going through a game run is one thing. Going through a real school with over a hundred role players, speakers echoing gun shots and screams, etc your brain forgets it isn't real pretty quick.

If it like flying, it is very real initially, then the intensity fades. The jet simulators I train in are certified by the FAA as so realistic, you can obtain your complete sign off to fly the real aircraft, without leaving the simulator. Initially, you feel much the same as flying the real aircraft. Over time though, you come to realize it is "only a simulator," and you will not die if you screw up. That is quite different than flying the real plane, where death is a possibility if you screw up.

[Alpha Sierra]

Simunitions and force on force training simulate it pretty well. FATS can seem very real, as well.

Going through a game run is one thing. Going through a real school with over a hundred role players, speakers echoing gun shots and screams, etc your brain forgets it isn't real pretty quick.

Thanks for the education

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My goal as a fat old guy is to be reasonably competent with the firearm as to skills and have some stress innoculation. I'm not a cop or a soldier.

Thus, I found personally that a combination of classes and competition is the best I can do. I did put out the effort to do a fair amount of training with quality trainers like Givens, Ayoob, Spaulding, Insights, KRtraining, etc. and go the NTI and Givens conference. Granted I had the resources to do such. Getting a touch old and got to watch the budget for big trips now.

I also shoot IDPA and sometimes steel. I just didn't like USPSA and some of the extreme gaming. I would shoot it if the only game nearby but we have lots of IDPA.

As far as stress innoculation, that's a real effect and simulations are the only way to get close. Some of the FOF exercises while not life and death are stressful. People have stressed out at some and take the results seriously. I've learned quite a bit when I failed in some (better experience than winning). But I've seen folks flip out that it was unfair that they 'lost'. I currently find IDPA not to be stressful but it was way back when. I have confidence in basic skills in reloading, clearing the gun, and things like that. Having to do a one handed anything - I know how. When faced with a few sketchy folks in the past few years - it wasn't a flip out - I said mentally that I can handle this with a range of de-esclation or if need be something worse. I think that is from quite a few FOF experiences with Code Eagles or airsoft (all of those do hurt).

Now for the AIWB - find a game that allows it if you want. Since I almost had my foot take a 45 ACP from a guy who couldn't holster his gun (I was score keeper), I can see why a local match may not want to deal with you shooting yourself without a vetting of one's expertise. Should a local match have to give you a pre-test? Maybe they don't want to. We've had the Serpa shoot yourself enough. One local range will only let you draw in a range if they pretest you. You may have the skill but do all?

IDPA or USPSA are not realistic (what an insight!). Replace the targets with folks with airsoft guns and you have one also. BEEP - you would be lucky to get past the first two targets without being shot. Who is going to survive 8 folks shooting back at you in most circumstances.

I find the whole debate to be a non-issue if you are an educated student of the issues. You take what you can from competitions and training. Appeals to authority are not definitive. Mr. X or Y saying A, B or C does not overwhelm my critical thinking.

BTW - screwing up and running into guys with full auto airsoft at a few feet and getting hosed, does break the skin and hurt. Then your wife yells at you for being a stupid fat old guy. But you can posture in the gym and preen for the guys who go to the square range as 'training'.

PS - that also happens when you take a knife class and break a blood vessel in your hand so that it swells up and you have to go the ER, being yelled at by your wife. Then you get a rig to wear to work and have to tell liberal arts professor that you did this during knife fighting class (haha!).

[BehindBlueI's]

If it like flying, it is very real initially, then the intensity fades. The jet simulators I train in are certified by the FAA as so realistic, you can obtain your complete sign off to fly the real aircraft, without leaving the simulator. Initially, you feel much the same as flying the real aircraft. Over time though, you come to realize it is "only a simulator," and you will not die if you screw up. That is quite different than flying the real plane, where death is a possibility if you screw up.

There's pros and cons to everything and if you run through the same simulation over and over I'm sure it gets old. Going through different live action scenarios routinely, though, keeps it fresh. Especially if you have pain feedback. Mixing simulator use in with live action FoF where bruises remind you that you caught a "bullet" have kept things pretty 'real' for me in training. I'm sure its also helped me stay more calm in real armed encounters and during real shoot/no shoot decisions because it felt more familiar.

**edit**

I'm also going to say that pain feedback and peer review make lessons stick much more than paper target lessons do. I vividly remember a scenario where I did something I thought would work but turned out to be very stupid and the instant feedback was I would have been stitched with AR fire if it was off the range. I instantly realized my plan in that situation was going to get me killed if I put it into play in real life, adapted my response, and now had that more improved plan in my head. That's the biggest difference for me.

[Chuck Haggard]

Pat Mac is rather tactical, what does he say about competition?;

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/08/18...ment-mcnamara/

[HopetonBrown]

Mike Pannone urged our class to go and compete. He's kinda tactical.