Ron Avery on the tactical vs competition false dichotomy.

[voodoo_man]

I would be glad to pay your entry to a few USPSA matches, if you were willing to give a few USPSA matches a whirl. If nothing else, it would probably provide some material for a few of your blog posts. USPSA is mega shooting fun with someonelse responsible for setting all the stuff up.

..and this is where I point out the obvious disconnect here.

Shooting may be fun, but the mindset behind training to shoot people is not something I take enjoyment in.

This is my last post in this thread.

[taadski]

I'll respond when I feel up to it since this type of rhetoric is pushing my forums are trash buttons.



Really?

In 2009 a good friend of mine (I had lunch with him today) was working when he spotted a stolen car and began to chase it. After a short pursuit that car crashed and the male ran on foot, my friend followed. They ran for several blocks and the male turned around and threw up his hands in a fighting stance. This was before we had tasers. My friend was a purple belt in BJJ at that time and had never fought outside of competition. He focused primarily on competition BJJ, he was very good at it. They began to fight and my friend got his back, getting some sort of arm lock from behind, I forget which one. The guy reached back and double-tapped on his arm, as someone would do in competition, and has done to my friend hundreds of time before, this was a fight, after a vehicle and foot pursuit, he was well into condition black. He let go, the guy rolled him and began to choke him, from his back. My friend got his pistol out and the fight began over the pistol. A single round was shot past his head, discharge by the POS. My friend was able to gain control of the firearm and the confrontation end with him discharging into the guys chest.

He has not competed since. This never made the news, other than "police involved shooting" and this a 100% competition induced, not training for the fight, scenario.

I've told this to LL, Orionz and several others here several years ago over beers, so before anyone drops the "that's bullshit" flag, you can confirm with them.

It can happen. It does happen. Just because there aren't any articles about it, no video's about it, no media clips about it does not mean it does not. My good friend lived it and it almost did not because of competition and the unconscious failures it provides.

So are you alleging your friend would have come out better somehow had he not trained in the art at all? I think we can all agree that there is a potential for developing bad habits by practicing anything without due attention. But it certainly seems like there is almost always a sizable net gain, even in as severe a case as you describe here.


t

[45dotACP]

So are you alleging your friend would have come out better somehow had he not trained in the art at all? I think we can all agree that there is a potential for developing bad habits by practicing anything without due attention. But it certainly seems like there is almost always a sizable net gain, even in as severe a case as you describe here.


t

Should have just trained Krav Maga...it was made for fighting, not competing.

Not to turn it into a personal attack but any art that claims it is "too dangerous" to be used for sport is typically one that involves being quite full of shit.

Here's my metaphor of today: I'll take Krav Maga over the Tae-Kwon-Do at the mall any day...but if I train Muay Thai, Boxing, and a strong Sambo/BJJ/Judo ground game, any notion of the "real world" krav maga actually standing a chance in such a matchup is laughable.

"but big boy rules!" you'll say.

Well just because the real world isn't Marquis of Queensbury doesn't mean an expertly thrown left hook hurts any less when it comes from a heavyweight.

[HCM]

..and this is where I point out the obvious disconnect here.

Shooting may be fun, but the mindset behind training to shoot people is not something I take enjoyment in.

Shooting is fun. It was fun when I was a kid shooting with my dad and uncle in a gravel pit and it wil be fun when I retire. For the meantime shootingis still fun. Training for gunfighting and shooting people who otherwise need shooting is work. Two seperate and distinct activities with two seperate and distinct mind sets.

I stumbled across a steel challenge match Saturday which looked like a lot of fun. I'd like to shoot the next one because it looks like fun and there may be some collateral benefit to my technical shooting skil set. There is nothing about it which approximates dealing with an opposing will trying to harm you or the reactive nature of street situations.

[Alpha Sierra]

..Shooting may be fun, but the mindset behind training to shoot people is not something I take enjoyment in.

I don't think there's a way to bridge a disconnect this big

[HopetonBrown]

This reminds me of a time when the forum was trying to explain that using both hands during a draw was not a one handed draw.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Shooting may be fun, but the mindset behind training to shoot people is not something I take enjoyment in.

Pain, blood, death complex - This is an evolutionary look at violence. We have to engage in violence at times. Fighting dangerous animals with sticks and stones. Close up fights with our human enemies.

Who wants to do that. An article in Behavioral and Brain Sciences (got the reference somewhere), suggest that using violence against our enemies unleashes a dopamine blast that is pleasurable. It is similar to effect of orgasm, certain drugs and solving an intellectual problem. It rewards these aspects of human behavior. Thus, violence itself and the appreciation of violence against our enemies can be pleasurable. That's why torture porn or watching real torture was a recreational event.

An aborigine, returning from the hunt, commented to an anthropologist that 'sex is always better after the blood' , as the two reward systems interacted.

It is also the case that we have systems to tone down interpersonal violence. But the for most people, honestly, practicing the killing arts is pleasurable.

Another good book is "Why we watch" - an analysis of why we watch competitive games and enjoy seeing the other team smashed. Obviously watching football contributes little to the intellect but we do. It harks back to tribal contests over territory and releases the dopamine blast when our team wins.

[Pup town]

voodoo_man,

Why are training scars potentially formed by competitive shooting an insurmountable problem, but those potentially formed by defensive training and dry fire are not?

I regret posting in this thread now, as this is the $64,000 question that I'd truly like to see a anti-competitor answer, and I fear my participation in this thread has either caused or given VoodooMan an excuse to stop responding.

So VoodooMan, I'm excusing myself from this thread. I won't post again. You can answer without worrying about my response. I think you'll find that no one else has been hostile to you, nor they will be. They are genuinely interested in your response.

[wtturn]

Mr. White again proves himself to be one of the most thoughtful, earnest seekers of the truth in the shooting community.

If we had more like you, we'd be in good shape.

[GJM]

If Gabe runs for President of the PF student body, he has my vote.