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Thread: Ron Avery on the tactical vs competition false dichotomy.

  1. #1
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    Ron Avery on the tactical vs competition false dichotomy.

    Copied from his recent Instagram post:

    ron.avery.official

    "Please explain to me how, at 3 – 5 yards, in the open, person to person as in a contact with a subject on the street, you are going to be better than a competitive shooter who trains far more than you do, who can move and shoot faster and more accurately than you can, who has the will to win, honed by countless hours of competition and has basic tactical concepts down as well or better than you do?

    Do you honestly believe they are going to “cave” when the moment of truth arrives? Do you think they cannot react to subject cues and are going to wait for a start buzzer to get into action? Seriously?

    I can give you numerous examples of competitive shooters having to put their skills to the test in real world challenges. Further, I would trust a USPSA or action pistol competitor behind me in any situation because I know their finger won’t be on the trigger with the muzzle pointing in my direction.

    Anyone who has competed or watched competitive shooters in USPSA, IPSC, Steel Challenge, 3 Gun Nation and other action shooting sports knows just how fast and accurate these shooters can be, both stationary and on the move. Many attend tactical training courses. A lot of them are cops or military as well with plenty of real world experience.

    Competitive shooting, blended with tactical training and tactical thinking and other skills areas, leads to a superior performer who knows just how good he/she is on any given day with the equipment they are carrying.

    Jeff Cooper designed man vs man competition as well as the sport of IPSC precisely because he realized how competition honed gunfighting skills.

  2. #2
    Site Supporter Failure2Stop's Avatar
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    Trying to pigeon-hole shooters into "tactical" and "competition" is dumb.
    Good shooters are good shooters.
    Good fighters are good fighters.
    They are neither mutually exclusive or inclusive.

    I'm not at all disagreeing with Mr. Avery, rather pointing out that just because someone fancies themselves a "tactical" shooter doesn't mean a damn thing about actual tactical proficiency or marksmanship skill.
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  3. #3
    I certainly agree with the above posts, though if Mr. Avery thinks that he's safer with a competitor behind him because of finger discipline issues, I would opine that he hasn't been paying as much attention to the sport lately as he might. Stereotyping in any direction usually leads to false assumptions. Though I'm picking on that part a bit tongue in cheek, it is certainly a real problem. I have found that it's pretty easy to judge a shooter or group of shooters as good or bad, but when it comes to finger discipline under stress, I make that determination on a case by case basis, and not lightly. I've had an awful lot of guns pointed at me in my life, and more of them were from good guys than bad guys. Not fun. As I've said before, there are limited times when that is inevitable, but mostly it is avoidable. There is never an exception to the finger issue though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
    Trying to pigeon-hole shooters into "tactical" and "competition" is dumb.
    Good shooters are good shooters.
    Good fighters are good fighters.
    They are neither mutually exclusive or inclusive.

    I'm not at all disagreeing with Mr. Avery, rather pointing out that just because someone fancies themselves a "tactical" shooter doesn't mean a damn thing about actual tactical proficiency or marksmanship skill.
    well said.

  5. #5
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wtturn View Post
    Competitive shooting, blended with tactical training and tactical thinking and other skills areas,
    Well, uh, yeah. I don't know that anyone is arguing differently.

    Please explain to me how, at 3 – 5 yards, in the open, person to person as in a contact with a subject on the street, you are going to be better than a competitive shooter who trains far more than you do, who can move and shoot faster and more accurately than you can, who has the will to win, honed by countless hours of competition and has basic tactical concepts down as well or better than you do?
    By cheating. Street shooting is OODA. Competition shooting is A. It's a relay race. It's great to have a fast anchorman, but if my first three guys are fast enough I'm across the finish line before your anchorman gets the baton, you still lose no matter how fast he is. I guess if we're going to have a wild west showdown, you got me. I've yet to see that scenario play out in the streets, though.

    I see a lot of sprinkling of "tactical" in his statement. I like Ron Avery, and I understand that folks in his business have to have something new to say every so often to spark buzz and keep your name up front. You can only have the "is your j-frame enough" and "Glock vs 1911" discussion so many times. However I'm seeing a lot of loopholes in this supposed false dichotomy. YMMV.

  6. #6
    Member MVS's Avatar
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    I have come to appreciate competitive shooting, and am even starting to believe you may have to do some if you want to get really good, buuuuut, where I differ is here. Most of the competition shooters I know in real life (that is not on this board) carry a 5 shot or no gun at all when not competing.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MVS View Post
    I have come to appreciate competitive shooting, and am even starting to believe you may have to do some if you want to get really good, buuuuut, where I differ is here. Most of the competition shooters I know in real life (that is not on this board) carry a 5 shot or no gun at all when not competing.
    He's addressing their physical and mental ability. Not material readiness. Most pure gamers I know treat it like golf with a gun with no interest in the tactical/self defense aspect. Which is perfectly fine.

    I like how Mr. Avery left out IDPA. Ha.

  8. #8
    While the "false dichotomy" of competition vs. "tactical" shooting is always a sore point or an obvious point of contention I think people misunderstand the actual nature of how these things are debated and applied in the real world.

    No one should ever argue that accurate shooting or training for accurate shooting is bad. Especially when you train to shoot fast and accurate. The issue becomes fast and accurate shooting is only a very small part of "tactical" shooting.

    Should we define what "tactical" shooting is? Is it CCW-style on the street 3-5 feet or yard encounters? Are they what police officers get into during patrol duty? Is it what SWAT or tactical officer's get into during raids or house clearings? Which one of those do competition shooters do really well? Probably the CCW-style, standing in the open and engaging with a target. Oh, that's what the OP even said. What about competition shooting has to do with taking cover, providing covering fire, overlapping fields of fire, discrimination, angles and walls, as well as other "tactical" concepts.

    How does competition shooting blend tactical concepts? It does not, really.

    Most who know me, know I do not shoot competition or game in any way, to me it is an easy way to burn horribly bad reps - speed unloading, speed reholstering, throwing guns, zero discrimination, no use of cover or concealment, no scanning, wearing gamer rigs and the obvious issues I've talked about over the years. People treat competition shooting like training. They do this because its vastly cheaper than actual classwork and it strokes their ego. The competitions I have RSO's at (only because they needed help no because I wanted to shoot them) nearly all the competitors, repeatedly, made tactical mistakes and refused to listen to a single word of advice on the matter, because their times would slow if they did things a different (tactical safe) way.

    The other kicker for me is that many competitions do not allow to shoot "as you come" meaning if I show up with an AIWB rig and pocketing my reloads, they'll tell me I cannot shoot. What is the issue there? Ohh, they do not believe the people can shoot or act safely - like vickers with his classes.

    I have nothing against Avery or what he is saying, we all have our points of view and our "filters" we use to gauge the world. I have had experiences with supposedly trained LEO's behind me that I did not trust holding a gun clearing rooms, hell, two or so years ago I did a sim training at my PD and I was shot in the stack....by the #2 !!! Twice. That's a training thing, sure, but its really an adrenaline thing, that's condition black. You cannot replicate that or how you will function unless you actually find yourself in that situation through training, profession or street encounter. How many competition shooters go to condition black during training? How many have a spike in heart rate so high that they are on autopilot? Because that's what happens in real life and no amount of competition shooting will prepare someone for that. Tactical training and experience, will and has.
    Last edited by voodoo_man; 08-26-2015 at 07:07 AM.
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  9. #9
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    I have had experiences with supposedly trained LEO's behind me that I did not trust holding a gun clearing rooms, hell, two or so years ago I did a sim training at my PD and I was shot in the stack....by the #2 !!! Twice.
    ...maybe that guy didn't like you?

    I have found Simunitions and realistic scenarios (which, for us our generally recreations of police action shootings our officers were recently involved in) has been the most helpful thing in my mind for furthering one's "tactical shooting" abilities.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's View Post
    ...maybe that guy didn't like you?

    I have found Simunitions and realistic scenarios (which, for us our generally recreations of police action shootings our officers were recently involved in) has been the most helpful thing in my mind for furthering one's "tactical shooting" abilities.
    Was a female that was about to retire and had no business being at the training.

    Sims are great. I wish there was a competition-style setup that requires people to find and shoot people who are going to shoot them back, all with sims. That would be worth the price of admission
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