HK VP9 1,000 Round Range Report: Pour yourself a mug, let’s have a talk.

[Patrin]

Thinking on your comment just a bit more, GJM...

In one training scenario I did a few times, the P229 was field stripped and dumped in a bucket...the magazine was taken apart and dumped in same bucket...12 rounds of Gold Dot in the bucket.

You then commenced with 50 knees, alternating a knee, on a heavy body bag, then max pushups for 2 minutes. Upon completion of this exertion, you put the magazine components together, put the rounds in the magazine, put your gun back together...load and engage three racks of steel, various large and small targets...under time...and against another peer.

Out of 40 students, even the bad shooters, I did not see a single light 4 - 4.5 SA pull go off prematurely on a steel plate, between a transition, at charging the hastily assembled handgun or in an emergency reload.

Hearts were racing.

This is not to invalidate your comment, just sharing an experience that has bearing on your comment.

Food for thought is all.

[HCM]

Thank you, HCM (and FredM).

No, I have not, but I have medium sized hands with slender fingers. I wonder if a stippling third party could carve out a small curve and fix that for you?

I have XXL hands but ive only noticed the issue with HK DA/SA guns and the VP-9. For some reason I don't notice it on LEM guns. I'm thining of hitting up Cold Bore customs or someone local for this. I'm sure it's possible, trough removal was /is part of the Bowie tactical Vickers package on the HK 45.

[Eastex]

I'm a new guy here and definitely not qualified enough to add anything to this conversation. I just want to say thanks to all of the posters. This is the kind of "grown ups talking guns" I've been looking for, not that Jerry Springer crap you find on some other forums.

[Sam]

Excellent write up/review Patrin.

GJM, are you okay with your wife carrying Glocks? My wife shoots striker guns very well and doesn't have the time to master a DA pull.

[GJM]

Thinking on your comment just a bit more, GJM...

In one training scenario I did a few times, the P229 was field stripped and dumped in a bucket...the magazine was taken apart and dumped in same bucket...12 rounds of Gold Dot in the bucket.

You then commenced with 50 knees, alternating a knee, on a heavy body bag, then max pushups for 2 minutes. Upon completion of this exertion, you put the magazine components together, put the rounds in the magazine, put your gun back together...load and engage three racks of steel, various large and small targets...under time...and against another peer.

Out of 40 students, even the bad shooters, I did not see a single light 4 - 4.5 SA pull go off prematurely on a steel plate, between a transition, at charging the hastily assembled handgun or in an emergency reload.

Hearts were racing.

This is not to invalidate your comment, just sharing an experience that has bearing on your comment.

Food for thought is all.

Patrin, again an excellent write-up. It obviously took some time to put together, and I enjoyed reading it, hearing your thinking and reflecting on your testing.

My point is not aimed at you personally. Historically we have games like IPSC, and now USPSA. No question, but they are games based on the gear we use and the target scenarios we tackle. Now, in addition to outright games like USPSA, we have a parallel universe, which is timmie games, shot with defensive guns and defensive gear. In timmie games, after we achieve an accuracy standard, time, as in less time, becomes the objective. We all know many ways to be faster. We can wear an appendix holster higher, with less retention. We can shoot lighter triggers. We can shoot 9mm. We can pick our concealment clothing carefully enough that it becomes equipment. We can pick pistols that lend themselves to faster manipulation of the slide stop.

I know that I can shoot a light trigger gun like a 320, VP9 or tweaked Glock better than I can a heavier trigger, heavier caliber gun. I prove it to myself almost every practice session, when I pull out my carry gun when I am done shooting the 320, Glock, CZ or whatever. A month or so ago, I had my 320 Compact .357 Sig pop put of my appendix holster mid flight, in turbulence, hit the floor of the cockpit and flop around there near the rudder pedals. I couldn't figure out a way I was happy holstering that pistol, in between my seat belts, clothing and the turbulence, without unloading the gun. Later, when some thread came up on PF, I did some tests with the 320 and Glock, and was able to make it fire at will, correctly seated in the holster, simulating some tag end of clothing or a cord lock that found its way into the holster. The combination of these two events caused me to reevaluate my priorities in a carry gun, focusing on a gun that is hard to shoot myself with, hard to shoot someone else with by accident, and only then easy to shoot the targets with. When I shoot my arrays with my game gun, as an example, I might average 5.0 seconds for some drill. Then at the end of my session, when I do it with my USP 45, P2000 .40, or whatever is my current flavor of a carry gun, maybe it takes 5.6-6.0 seconds. That is an enormous difference if we are shooting drills for score, and reflects that it is harder to shoot a heavier trigger and possibly a heavier caliber. Of course that doesn't factor in that my carry gun is harder to shoot myself with, and harder to shoot someone else by accident.

If I want to win the timmie games, than every .1 matters. In a real defensive use of a handgun, I value the characteristics of a handgun that do not show up in time alone. As a result, I consider pure shooting tests in evaluating a carry gun. In addition to pure shooting tests, I put a lot of subjective weight on the gun being "safe," which I define as hard to shoot me with and hard to shoot someone else by accident. In a perfect world, we all use perfect technique, in well lit areas, with warm hands, with proper clothing, without being excited. For an imperfect world, I would like some extra forgiveness in my equipment.

None of this is to suggest the VP9 isn't a great gun, that striker guns are inherently unsafe, or that others should evaluate a carry gun the way I do (now) -- just my thinking on this subject.

[Dagga Boy]

Where is GJM.......because the guy who wrote the above is a replacement alien...... As soon as he posts about model trains I will know for sure it is a borg posting.

Patrin. Great stuff and it is funny on the drill with the bucket. Did a very similar with my SWAT guys with MP-5's in pieces in a bucket of muddy water. FAR more stress trying to get the gun together (every error required a 50 yard and back run while we put the parts back in the bucket to start over) than the fitness stuff. I will caution though that a bunch of what folks consider stress training is actually "training while tired". Important, sure. Simulates shooting stress, not even close. As I have told many folks, the only thing that I ever found that was "like" a shooting is being in a car accident at speed. It invokes similar response in tactile feel, loss of hearing, time slowing down to a crawl, having to make decisions based on training under extreme stress, and will show how well you have trained very quickly. Of the shootings I have investigated, being tired was not much of a factor. Same with negligent discharges. Most can be traced to poor habits, or practice made permanent of the wrong thing. Also, keeping in a rational mode through confidence and training versus an emotional mode caused by panic. Again, not much tired going on. My guys were stressed on the MP-5 stuff because they had a task they did not remember how to do and panicked. For a bunch of SWAT dogs running and doing forced fitness exercises was not a stressor. When I ran the courses (I would always pre run courses before my guys to identify possible safety issues) for our "Will to Survive" tests I was run by senior SWAT guys. I was more stressed by the running and fitness stressors than the shooting and MP-5 in the bucket stuff (shooting and putting the gun together was rest time for me).

I am of the opinion after studying this stuff since the mid 80's that trigger travel is a far bigger issue in negligent discharges and un-intended shots than weight. I also think weight causes its own issue of building momentum that is harder to reverse than simply building movement. It is why I have evolved on believing the LEM to be the best LE trigger out there for dealing with LE problems (a majority of which has nothing to do with shooting).

[BehindBlueI's]

Thinking on your comment just a bit more, GJM...

In one training scenario I did a few times, the P229 was field stripped and dumped in a bucket...the magazine was taken apart and dumped in same bucket...12 rounds of Gold Dot in the bucket.

You then commenced with 50 knees, alternating a knee, on a heavy body bag, then max pushups for 2 minutes. Upon completion of this exertion, you put the magazine components together, put the rounds in the magazine, put your gun back together...load and engage three racks of steel, various large and small targets...under time...and against another peer.

Out of 40 students, even the bad shooters, I did not see a single light 4 - 4.5 SA pull go off prematurely on a steel plate, between a transition, at charging the hastily assembled handgun or in an emergency reload.

Hearts were racing.

This is not to invalidate your comment, just sharing an experience that has bearing on your comment.

Food for thought is all.

Adrenalin dump and hand shake aren't the only issues at play. Say you are holding a violent suspect at gun point who's got his gun hanging down below his waist. Your brain wants to reassure yourself that you are prepared to shoot him if you have to. "Trigger check" comes into play. Subconsciously some people will touch the trigger to verify to their brain that it is real and that you know where it is. Not everyone does it, but those who do are seldom aware of it until shown it on video.

I can say with 100% conviction that had I been armed with a lighter trigger I would have shot someone who pulled a cellphone. It was night time, armed robbery suspect who fled, fell, rolled over, and pulled something black from his waistband and began to raise it. I had the trigger partially depressed when my brain caught up and realized it was a phone and not a gun. The shot would have almost certainly have been ruled justified given the circumstances, but I'm real glad I didn't shoot him.

[Patrin]

GJM, nothing taken personal bud, far from it, were pistol-forum buddies far as I'm concerned. We grow with every exchange.

I could go on a tangent about shooting faster than a certain speed, some are capable of some remarkable times. I'd wager most shooters on this forum would out-shoot me based on time.

In a defensive scenario, how much time do you need? From where I sit, I don't think tenths of a second should be the goal. Situational awareness should be. By knowing your surroundings, dictate the setting and the time needed to be in an advantageous position...always be looking for cover one wise instructor told me. OODA loop.

If I felt even the least bit tingly about something...for instance...I went to the flight deck...I'm a guy hitting on the stewardess having a cup of coffee, but I'm in the most advantageous position. In the desert, it's the high ground, it's keeping the sun behind you, not approaching thick bush from open ground...giving yourself the breathing room to think.

On time games...I plead sort of aloof to that definition...I stay within a "smooth is fast" zone so that I'm in control. One second A zone hits from the high-ready at 7 yards, 2-3 seconds for a double-tap from the holster. Staying in control, training to be in control / one step ahead, as lamented here often, is just so, so important.

My times are nothing to right home about, and I've never been the fastest or the slowest...I've always just been a solid performer and I think that's a good place to be for any shooter. I've never been left too far behind by another shooter in a course of fire or class. Some may be faster, but mistakes get made faster too...wink, wink.

I wholeheartedly respect your assessment...I'll add that on your test with the P320 and Glock, we could duplicate that with a DA/SA, particularly actions that have DA triggers tuned to 7-8 lbs. It would take a bit more force, but it's doable.

I'll offer the comment that a CCW piece popping out of it's holster...well...sh*t can that holster. That wouldn't be acceptable to me.

A CCW holster should hold the gun until you're ready to draw it...man...I'm just thinking about your scenario on a 777 in the middle of the Atlantic...peeps would be going ape doo-doo if a gun were to pop out.

Any member or lurker on this forum is more in tune with their weapon than the average bear, simply by the desire to figure things out for themselves. We must make our assessment and go with what were are comfortable with.

I think seeking good instruction and training appropriately with whatever you choose is the best redoubt to negligent failure.

[Patrin]

Patrin. Great stuff and it is funny on the drill with the bucket. Did a very similar with my SWAT guys with MP-5's in pieces in a bucket of muddy water. FAR more stress trying to get the gun together (every error required a 50 yard and back run while we put the parts back in the bucket to start over) than the fitness stuff. I will caution though that a bunch of what folks consider stress training is actually "training while tired". Important, sure. Simulates shooting stress, not even close. As I have told many folks, the only thing that I ever found that was "like" a shooting is being in a car accident at speed. It invokes similar response in tactile feel, loss of hearing, time slowing down to a crawl, having to make decisions based on training under extreme stress, and will show how well you have trained very quickly. Of the shootings I have investigated, being tired was not much of a factor. Same with negligent discharges. Most can be traced to poor habits, or practice made permanent of the wrong thing. Also, keeping in a rational mode through confidence and training versus an emotional mode caused by panic. Again, not much tired going on. My guys were stressed on the MP-5 stuff because they had a task they did not remember how to do and panicked. For a bunch of SWAT dogs running and doing forced fitness exercises was not a stressor. When I ran the courses (I would always pre run courses before my guys to identify possible safety issues) for our "Will to Survive" tests I was run by senior SWAT guys. I was more stressed by the running and fitness stressors than the shooting and MP-5 in the bucket stuff (shooting and putting the gun together was rest time for me).

I am of the opinion after studying this stuff since the mid 80's that trigger travel is a far bigger issue in negligent discharges and un-intended shots than weight. I also think weight causes its own issue of building momentum that is harder to reverse than simply building movement. It is why I have evolved on believing the LEM to be the best LE trigger out there for dealing with LE problems (a majority of which has nothing to do with shooting).

nyeti, those simulated fitness-stress scenarios are a bit more hardcore than I participated in. I bow to that insight.

We can overcome tired, and behindbluel's point on adrenalin dump and trigger checking are well taken.

In the training environment, dry, live, sims, shoot-house, role-playing, executing arrests while pepper sprayed...there's only so far we can go to simulate D-day or how we will react on the street. Thankfully, good situational awareness, a cool head and playing some verbal chess can keep us from getting there in many encounters.

Vigorous testing at least can highlight to ourselves how we may react God forbid.

Points, and experience, very well taken, indeed.

[Dagga Boy]

The bucket of MP-5 parts was the easy part. Our "Will to Survive" course was brutal. It was a sickener and confidence builder used to show guys how they could effectively shoot even under the worst of conditions. Simulated injuries got worse with every shot until they were down to one eye in a gas mask and a thumb and index finger on their support hand while grounded and being soaked with cold water and "encouraged" by their teammates. It was a massive mind screw as well with some real psychological stuff thrown in. The point of these exercises was to not have my guys have to figure out how to run their gun under horribly adverse conditions as the time to learn how to do this is not in the middle of a fight. We had to stop doing them after a few years when it became more of a hazing operation for new SWAT guys than a training evolution, but the skills learned was valuable.
I find the key to all this kind of stuff is more to train the brain to remain calm and in a rational state during times of distraction or tough conditions. This can be exhaustion, fear, injury, or many other factors. This is one of the big benefits of competition is essentially trying to remain on your game and execute the fundamentals when under an unknown time pressure. Those who can stay focused under stress are learning a valuable skill.