Gel test: 9mm & .45 ACP Polycase Inceptor ARX

[ack495]

Very good. Sounds like solid advice. Thanks.

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[Joe in PNG]

.45acp 230gr JHPs have always had some expansion issues with various brands of ammo over the years. It's a complex equation of impact energy relative to the thickness the petals that must expand. .45acp has very thick expansion petals, and it needs quite a bit of hydraulic force to get them to open. This is also why the .45acp is more prone to "plugging" than the smaller, faster calibers. When the FBI released their recommended .45acp JHPs they listed the 185gr load as being superior, because it had enough velocity and impact energy to more reliably opening up the hollow point.

If you'll notice in the last couple of years, the major ammo makers have drastically boosted their .45acp LE loads to better meet the FBI tests. The Federal 230gr HST is nice in that it has reliable expansion at a moderate velocity(I chronoed them out of a P220 at 845fps). However, they are borderline in the FBI tests for penetration through various materials. For LE loads, Federal, Speer, and Winchester all sell their bonded loads at +P levels. Winchester RB 230gr is 918fps from a P220, Federal TB 230gr+P is 921fps from a P220, and the Speer G2 230gr+P is advertised at 910fps(haven't gotten ahold of any yet). Personally I find these hot loads to be too hot for effective shooting under high stress conditions. I have seen a significant number of our officer's shooting skills deteriorate using this +P level ammo. Heck, Officer Tim Grammins came to the same conclusion after his G21 gun fight using standard pressure 230gr Gold Dots.

Back on topic......in general the .45acp has always been finicky with JHP reliability, and I think the problems will persist as the .45acp is being phased out of most of the military and many domestic LE agencies. Market priority has shifted to the 9mm in most circles, with the .40 as likely a secondary priority.

This may be worth a thread in itself- the classic assumption around the gun counter is that .45acp is THE JMB blessed Hammer of Thor, able to throw baddies as if they were tied to ropes.
That .45 ACP ball is a bit of a disappointment comes as a surprise to none here, but that .45 JHP is struggling to perform is.

[Tamara]

re: 230gr .45ACP +P

In both HST and Ranger-T, the only ones with which I've really done a reasonable amount of chrono testing over a variety of guns, I've found that the velocity difference between the standard pressure and +P offerings is smaller than lot-to-lot differences in velocity. In other words, going back through my notebook, it's not uncommon to find that the +P I'm shooting this month is putting up slower numbers than the standard pressure I chronoed in a test last year.

[Aksarben]

In the Winchester Ranger T (RA45T) there is also the little known fact that new and fresh tooling that makes the talons and scores the jacket make the bullet behave well, even in standard pressure out of short barrel pistols. But, when the tooling wears, and they keep making bullets when they should have stopped to change out tooling, then you get copper jackets that are irregular in consistent expansion. Sometimes only 2/3 will expand, sometimes none with the standard pressure round. Out of longer barrels, the issue is less pronounced... IE longer is better for these standard RA45T. The +P only have 2000 psi extra over the others, but when it comes to short barrels, it seems to make a difference and ESPECIALLY when the bullet has not been properly scored.

Fired some RA45TP yesterday out of my S&W shield .45 and it worked admirably. below is a pic (and I've seen very similar on Google search) of 2 talons completely unaffected, and still folded inside.

[Tamara]

In the Winchester Ranger T (RA45T) there is also the little known fact that...

I realize you just joined up this month, but that fact is not really all that "little-known" around here. If you do a forum search here on "RA45T DocGKR", you will probably find out lots of "little-known" stuff.

[Ed L]

re: 230gr .45ACP +P

In both HST and Ranger-T, the only ones with which I've really done a reasonable amount of chrono testing over a variety of guns, I've found that the velocity difference between the standard pressure and +P offerings is smaller than lot-to-lot differences in velocity. In other words, going back through my notebook, it's not uncommon to find that the +P I'm shooting this month is putting up slower numbers than the standard pressure I chronoed in a test last year.

If you look at the chronograph results here http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/ the difference between the Winchester Ranger in .45 for the standard velocity and +P loads is 4 feet per second.

With the Federal HST there is 22 feet per second difference between the standard velocity load and the +P load.

[orionz06]

I realize you just joined up this month, but that fact is not really all that "little-known" around here. If you do a forum search here on "RA45T DocGKR", you will probably find out lots of "little-known" stuff.

Like an entire list of ammo that works and posts on ammo that is a scam?

[KhanRad]

If you look at the chronograph results here http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/ the difference between the Winchester Ranger in .45 for the standard velocity and +P loads is 4 feet per second.

With the Federal HST there is 22 feet per second difference between the standard velocity load and the +P load.

I'm not surprised by all the variations ppl are getting with Winchester. Their .45 loads have been all over the place in the last decade. Also one thing to keep in mind is that velocities can differ greatly depending on your location. When I transferred from Colorado to Louisiana, the exact same box lots of 9mm 147gr duty loads were 20-30fps slower when chronoed at the new location.

[Tamara]

If you look at the chronograph results here http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/ the difference between the Winchester Ranger in .45 for the standard velocity and +P loads is 4 feet per second.

With the Federal HST there is 22 feet per second difference between the standard velocity load and the +P load.

But I don't need to look at Lucky Gunner's results*. Like I said, over the last several years my own chronograph results show that the difference between std. pressure and +P from both manufacturers is smaller than the lot-to-lot variation.


*Although I think the Lucky Gunner Lounge is one of the best sources of low-derp-content writing on the internet, and I don't say that just because several members of this board are published there.

[Tamara]

Also one thing to keep in mind is that velocities can differ greatly depending on your location. When I transferred from Colorado to Louisiana, the exact same box lots of 9mm 147gr duty loads were 20-30fps slower when chronoed at the new location.

All my chrono testing is done at one of two locations, either 860' or 740' ASL.