I found it interesting that 2 well known arms manufacturers Alexander Arms, and Sturm Ruger have adopted the ARX bullet. Who's next?? Smith & Wesson? Sig Sauer?
I found it interesting that 2 well known arms manufacturers Alexander Arms, and Sturm Ruger have adopted the ARX bullet. Who's next?? Smith & Wesson? Sig Sauer?
Vern
Ol' Nebraskan.
Glaser Safety Slugs were loaded by Winchester, Federal, and Remington when they first came out decades ago. It is crap ammo, based on myth, folklore, and junk science. Corbon still loads this crap too.Originally Posted by Aksarben
Just because ARX is being loaded by several other companies doesn't mean that it is good for self defense. ARX is a market niche for the those willing to buy the snake oil hook, line, and sinker and make the companies manufacturing it some short term money on the side.
"A man with an experience is not a slave to a man with an opinion."
Your results regarding the standard pressure Win ranger 230gr ammo is a bit worrisome. This is my departments carry load for our glock 21's. Which, should get enough velocity to expand. However we have some plain clothes officers who are issued and allowed to carry glock 36's. I'll have to get some velocity readings to see where they are at.No it does not. Range ammo and SD ammo are 2 different things. Good reliable, consistent range ammo that does not cost an arm and a leg is always appreciated. Single point was, the ARX was not 10 times the cost of other SD ammo, at least not in my area.
I bought som Sig V-crown in 9mm and .45 and thought it would be excellent due to it's large hollowpoint. Simple tests into water jugs show how nice it mushrooms out. However, there is the Lucky Gunner page that does not show such a wonderful story. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...llistic-tests/ It apears the Sig V-Crown has a tendency, as do several, to get that HP plugged up with denim, and give little to no expansion. Their (Lucky Gunner) tests on my Winchester Ranger T were excellent, but I had found in my case, that my ammo failed to upset completely and sometimes not at all. Doctor Gary Roberts wrote something about this on the internet and I received the info from Dr. Roberts from a friend that sells Ranger T in Wisconsin. Sometimes the tooling that make the talons, and scoring is no longer sharp and fails to do a good job. This creates a bullet that is not up to par with lower velocities, but "as I understand it" work alright out of long "grease gun" type .45s. The +P, even though the tooling might be worn had enough velocity in short barrels to expand reliably.
This is the standard RA45T shot from my Sig P320 (note these were returned back to Olin)
This is 2 of the newer boxes of RA45T +P I had also bought online, and following Dr. Gary Roberts notion that +P helped, it certainl seems to have helped in expected expansion. One if from my S&W Shield, and one if from my Sig P320: Ranger -T .45 ACP +P
I just purchased a shield 45 for off duty/court carry. I took it to the range the other day and chronographed these rounds out of the 3.3" barrel. I did two six shot strings and the avg FPS was 810 and 804 respectively. So slow! Standard deviation was excellent at 7 and 11. Temp was about 76°, 64% humidity, at sea level for those wondering.
But I figured this velocity was very low and I probably wouldn't get reliable performance.
I have a couple of boxes of Speer gold dot 230gr, so that what I'm carrying in my new shield for now. I've seen nothing but good short barrel results from those.
I'm going to have to talk to the admin about switching to the +P version for future ammo orders or get more info on this new 8 talon version coming out.
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Last edited by ack495; 05-21-2017 at 11:27 AM.
.45acp 230gr JHPs have always had some expansion issues with various brands of ammo over the years. It's a complex equation of impact energy relative to the thickness the petals that must expand. .45acp has very thick expansion petals, and it needs quite a bit of hydraulic force to get them to open. This is also why the .45acp is more prone to "plugging" than the smaller, faster calibers. When the FBI released their recommended .45acp JHPs they listed the 185gr load as being superior, because it had enough velocity and impact energy to more reliably opening up the hollow point.
If you'll notice in the last couple of years, the major ammo makers have drastically boosted their .45acp LE loads to better meet the FBI tests. The Federal 230gr HST is nice in that it has reliable expansion at a moderate velocity(I chronoed them out of a P220 at 845fps). However, they are borderline in the FBI tests for penetration through various materials. For LE loads, Federal, Speer, and Winchester all sell their bonded loads at +P levels. Winchester RB 230gr is 918fps from a P220, Federal TB 230gr+P is 921fps from a P220, and the Speer G2 230gr+P is advertised at 910fps(haven't gotten ahold of any yet). Personally I find these hot loads to be too hot for effective shooting under high stress conditions. I have seen a significant number of our officer's shooting skills deteriorate using this +P level ammo. Heck, Officer Tim Grammins came to the same conclusion after his G21 gun fight using standard pressure 230gr Gold Dots.
Back on topic......in general the .45acp has always been finicky with JHP reliability, and I think the problems will persist as the .45acp is being phased out of most of the military and many domestic LE agencies. Market priority has shifted to the 9mm in most circles, with the .40 as likely a secondary priority.
"A man with an experience is not a slave to a man with an opinion."
The latter is highly unlikely, and the former doesn't make ammo, just licenses their brand name. If enough ballistic illiterati gobble it up to make it look crazy profitable, maybe they will. After all, they cynically jumped on the Judge bandwagon with their own derpy revolving shot pistol.
Last edited by Tamara; 05-21-2017 at 11:47 AM.
I am a patrol officer on the firearms training staff but I had a major hand in the ammunition selection. Based of course on DocGKR's suggestions. We just got away from the .40 last year after 15+ years. We gave every officer a choice between Gen 4 Glock's in 9mm or .45. Patrol officers assigned to plain clothes assignments, detectives, court, records, etc. got second gun choices of the glock 26 or 36. So we just shifted to both 9mm and .45.
When we switched calibers, our ATK distributor was completely out of 9mm HST 147gr. We were already using Winchester 5.56 RA556B in our patrol rifles, so the natural choice was to keep it simple and slight less expensive, to stay with Winchester ammo across the board. So the 147gr T-series was our choice in the 9mm. I should have done more research and just spoke up in regards to the .45 ammo. Myself, among others, tried the Win .45 +P rangers and we could not tell any perceived recoil difference between them and the standard pressure. Unlike the HST's which you can tell you were shooting +P. Regardless, we chose to just stick with the standard pressure version. Regretting that now.
Last edited by ack495; 05-21-2017 at 12:45 PM. Reason: spelling
Winchester has cranked up the velocity on all of their lineup. The regular 230gr Ranger Talons run at 878fps from my P220 which is too hot, and the +P version is at 923fps. In a .45acp, pretty much anything over 860fps starts to become a hinderance on followup shot speed, shooter fatigue, and shooter anticipated recoil. The original GI load was a 230gr bullet at 830fps from a 5" all steel 1911.
I wish I could say that all this turbo charging of the .45acp has resulting in some spectacular OIS results. Not so much, in fact the officers are often shaken afterward after seeing no effect after multiple .45acp JHP hits on their target. Keith Borders and Tim Grammins are great examples. In fact, here is a pod cast with Grammins on his incident:
http://proarmspodcast.com/090-office...e-police-dept/
"A man with an experience is not a slave to a man with an opinion."
What's the thinking behind allowing a choice of 9mm or .45?
الدهون القاع الفتيات لك جعل العالم هزاز جولة الذهاب
Thanks for that podcast link. Very interesting first hand account of an OIS. I will definitely be forwarding this link to everyone at work to listen to it.
I am going to request a box of the + P's from my Winchester distributor, just to shoot them again and run through the Chrono. I really remember them being indistinguishable. Everything I've read on them seems to echo that as well.
Seems like a win-win. It's only loaded a slightly hotter, with no perceived increase in recoil. And getting the bullet to a fast enough velocity to expand more reliably in our shorter barrel guns.
Short answer is that it made everyone happy. We all agreed the .40 was out. No one liked the recoil and it doesn't do anything the 9mm couldn't. I was in the 9mm camp for everyone for all the reasons we all know, more ammo, faster follow up, better for the marginal shooter, etc. But some guys just wanted the .45, especially some of the people making the purchasing decisions. I couldn't convince them otherwise. I wasn't exactly trying to talk them out of the .45 as it's a great round. I just felt the 9mm was better for everyone. But our chief was fine with both, so everyone wins.
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Really you are going to need a lot more than one box to get a decent assessment, and comparison to the standard pressure load before you come to any conclusions.
Here's some ideas for your test:
-Run some tests single handed, particularly weak handed. Hand injuries are common in a gun fight, and it is best to select equipment based on how proficient we can be at our worst.....not how well we can do at our best.
-Perform a timed course of fire with multiple targets. This way the shooter will be forced to keep the splits tight, and shift from target to target requiring on the fly adjustments in stance and grip. Use a standard paper target to score them.
-Do some testing at night. Often +P ammo has considerable more flash resulting in more difficulty in making accurate follow up shots. This is why we no longer authorize the 147gr+P HST....big flash.
-Perform long shooting strings at the targets of at least 10-15 rounds for speed......this will emphasize the negative effects of recoil which breaks down the shooter's grip with each shot, brings about the onset of fatigue, and challenges the shooter to not jerk the trigger.
I did some extensive .45acp testing several years ago with 3 other guys before I put my P220 in the safe and chose to carry 9mm. Most of us could handle low volume shooting strings for time with two hand stances. When we pushed ourselves by simulating more stressful conditions, that became the achilles heel of the .45acp. Not to mention we performed several car shoots which convinced most of us to use 9mm or .40S&W.
"A man with an experience is not a slave to a man with an opinion."
