Open Carry

[UNK]

Here is the scenario. You are in a public place, and one of these complete and total idiots ( http://chrishernandezauthor.com/ ) comes through the door.
what is your initial reaction?
what do you do?
if you engage one or a group of these idiots in conversation and they scream constitutional right whats your response?

I can't help but think this is nothing but a killing waiting to happen.

[voodoo_man]

Depends on their body language and show of intent.

I've been on duty, in full uniform and had OC'ers walk inside a starbucks I was getting a coffee in. Their intent wasn't to do harm, i twas just to make people look at them, like the goth kids with fake tattoo's and skin tight clothing. They want attention, the more you give them, the more they want.

[Robinson]

If I were to encounter someone open carrying who was acting in an unsafe manner I would probably just leave the area, possibly call the authorities. Otherwise I would go about my business. Maybe roll my eyes a little. I don't feel that OCers who are obviously trying to get attention are doing anything to further or even protect my rights as a gun owner and are doing more harm than good in many cases.

When I lived in rural Ohio I sometimes open carried when walking the fields, etc... I always carry concealed where I live now in Georgia. The last time I saw someone openly carrying was a few months ago in a supermarket. It didn't startle or offend me -- but the first thought I had was "if I were to lose my mind and decide to commit a crime here and now the first thing I would do is shoot or disarm that guy...".

I keep thinking that somehow reasonable, responsible gun owning citizens need to speak out against the dumbasses who are doing their best to give us a bad name. But just exactly how to do that in a way that will accomplish anything positive I haven't come up with yet. Engaging them in dialog about it on the spot will only lead to argument I think.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've said this other places. My kid worked in a Starbucks during school. I sometimes would stop and visit as it was near work. If I were there and the gun was not handled in a completely benign manner (slung, muzzle up, over the shoulder), I would be ready to at least challenge them at the first movement that was not safe.

We did a class research project on what students thought about if someone like the Chipolte twins came into a store. It was for our research class, so we designed a survey, had a video, etc. The idea was that when the OC person came in, holding the gun in a manner that could be perceived as threatening (remember short grinning Chipolte dude), you drew and challenged him or even just shot him. Quite a few of the TX kids were just fine with that action. Note, they are not usually antigun East Coast folks, even those with progun attitudes were ok with the defensive actions.

When a guy with orange hair walks into a theater and opens fire - you are an idiot not to move up the scale of alertness to respond quickly.

[TGS]

I've said this other places. My kid worked in a Starbucks during school. I sometimes would stop and visit as it was near work. If I were there and the gun was not handled in a completely benign manner (slung, muzzle up, over the shoulder), I would be ready to at least challenge them at the first movement that was not safe. .

This.

I think it's dangerous to be complacent and assume that people carrying long guns into public places are just OC activists.

Be aware. At the very least, establish an advantageous position and review your exits. If something doesn't feel right, leave.

Things that might make me feel "not right": multiple persons bearing long arms establishing positional dominance or occluding exits. If they are just standing around instead of doing something that you would come into the establishment to do. If they have an aggressive posture. If they're sweating, looking nervous, shifting their weight about, glancing or producing physical tics, constantly checking the time, wearing heavy clothing in warm weather, communicating implicitly or silently with eachother.

Do not assume they're just OC activists. Remember the shit you learned in LE or .mil human terrain/combat hunter courses, ECQC or other open enrollment fighting courses. Apply it.

[voodoo_man]

This.

I think it's dangerous to be complacent and assume that people carrying long guns into public places are just OC activists.

Be aware. At the very least, establish an advantageous position and review your exits. If something doesn't feel right, leave.

Things that might make me feel "not right": multiple persons bearing long arms establishing positional dominance or occluding exits. If they are just standing around instead of doing something that you would come into the establishment to do. If they have an aggressive posture. If they're sweating, looking nervous, shifting their weight about, glancing or producing physical tics, constantly checking the time, wearing heavy clothing in warm weather, communicating implicitly or silently with eachother.

Do not assume they're just OC activists. Remember the shit you learned in LE or .mil human terrain/combat hunter courses, ECQC or other open enrollment fighting courses. Apply it.

While like many others who will read your post agree to not be complacent, you cannot treat every person who has a gun as a threat/contact. Imagine the river of blood in streets?

As I stated, it is about intent and perceived intent. If the guy/gal gives you the smallest impression of ill intent, by all means act on it with prejudice.

----

Off topic but same concept - had training with a few of our bomb squad guys few months ago and the LT there gave us an example, on the same lines as what I am saying here...

"You walk into a Wawa to make yourself a cup of coffee, because its free and no one has time to stand in lines, and while you are walking up to the coffee island in the back, you see a dude in full muslim garb, the whole bit, just as you two make eye contact he raises his arms and yells "salami snackbar!" Well in that instance you thought you saw a wire coming from his torso area to something in his hand, seeing the movies you saw, and knowing what you know, you draw and pop him in the face...just like the IDF told you to. He's dead, you are a hero, get your metal and steak dinner a few weeks later. What are the chances that you are wrong? What are the chances that he's just crazy and wants to do suicide by cop and didn't actually have any wires anywhere? What if he was just yelling in his native tongue how happy he was to see you? Take the time to feel the intent, take the time to evaluate the situation and the circumstances. It'll be the difference between being a hero and getting arrested for homicide."

I think the concept is applicable to both situations.

[UNK]

OK Go back to the link in the original post. Next to last pic. Guy coming out of the brass and glass doors. black duster. Do you consider that intent?

While like many others who will read your post agree to not be complacent, you cannot treat every person who has a gun as a threat/contact. Imagine the river of blood in streets?

As I stated, it is about intent and perceived intent. If the guy/gal gives you the smallest impression of ill intent, by all means act on it with prejudice.

----

Off topic but same concept - had training with a few of our bomb squad guys few months ago and the LT there gave us an example, on the same lines as what I am saying here...

"You walk into a Wawa to make yourself a cup of coffee, because its free and no one has time to stand in lines, and while you are walking up to the coffee island in the back, you see a dude in full muslim garb, the whole bit, just as you two make eye contact he raises his arms and yells "salami snackbar!" Well in that instance you thought you saw a wire coming from his torso area to something in his hand, seeing the movies you saw, and knowing what you know, you draw and pop him in the face...just like the IDF told you to. He's dead, you are a hero, get your metal and steak dinner a few weeks later. What are the chances that you are wrong? What are the chances that he's just crazy and wants to do suicide by cop and didn't actually have any wires anywhere? What if he was just yelling in his native tongue how happy he was to see you? Take the time to feel the intent, take the time to evaluate the situation and the circumstances. It'll be the difference between being a hero and getting arrested for homicide."

I think the concept is applicable to both situations.

[UNK]

What does challenge mean to you?

I've said this other places. My kid worked in a Starbucks during school. I sometimes would stop and visit as it was near work. If I were there and the gun was not handled in a completely benign manner (slung, muzzle up, over the shoulder), I would be ready to at least challenge them at the first movement that was not safe.

We did a class research project on what students thought about if someone like the Chipolte twins came into a store. It was for our research class, so we designed a survey, had a video, etc. The idea was that when the OC person came in, holding the gun in a manner that could be perceived as threatening (remember short grinning Chipolte dude), you drew and challenged him or even just shot him. Quite a few of the TX kids were just fine with that action. Note, they are not usually antigun East Coast folks, even those with progun attitudes were ok with the defensive actions.

When a guy with orange hair walks into a theater and opens fire - you are an idiot not to move up the scale of alertness to respond quickly.

[voodoo_man]

OK Go back to the link in the original post. Next to last pic. Guy coming out of the brass and glass doors. black duster. Do you consider that intent?

Didn't he get locked up for something stemming from that?

To me, that is definitely intent, but am I going to start shooting?


Depends I guess.

[Paul]

Personally I'd just leave and let the corporate headquarter of the company know that if you're going to do business with people like that, I'm not doing business with you. To date this has been the most effective way of dealing with OC types.

Stupid people with guns are stupid people with guns, they're dangerous not because of intent, they're dangerous because they're stupid. Go to any gun range and look at all the places that have bullet holes that there shouldn't be bullet holes, and there will be several that solely due to luck there wasn't a body there to stop the bullet. It's a fairly safe bet that none of those wayward bullet holes were put there on purpose, but regardless of intent a dumbass with a gun pointed a loaded firearm somewhere he shouldn't have and pulled the trigger.

People handling firearms is the only way that there's going to be a negligent discharge. I can't tell other people what they should be threatened by, but people handling firearms (especially when they're engaging in "in your face" behavior) is a big red flag for danger in my book. It's much harder to get accidentally shot with an unloaded firearm, if you're not around people playing with guns.