Interesting observations HK vs SIG: a Police Rangemaster's Perspective

[YVK]

^^^^ Two of my P30s required hammering a spent casing out of their chambers when I was doing ignition reliability testing with two different russian steel ammo types. Like within one box of ammo each time. The first time I thought it was a fluke, the second time I said "reason # 25 my Glocks aren't going anywhere".

Guess I've been lucky; still on the originals in all my HK pistols, and my training gun is approaching 14K rounds. Oh, I'm not dismissing the issue; too many folks have had them break to chalk it up to user error (and how would you abuse one of those anyway???).


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Dry fire, I presume. I was two for two at about 4-5K live rounds intervals each until I started to replace them periodically. I realized that perhaps I was dry firing more than I had thought. I then started to approximate my dry fire count but that became old real fast, so I just got a dedicated dry fire gun.
Of interest, since I moved from heavy to light trs, the breakages went down. I think that the light trs has more longevity.

[TGS]

Here's a thread to reference from a few years back: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-P30-Stoppages

Are these the same stoppages, gt?

[LSP552]

I just found it odd that the Sigs seemed better in that regard for you. Not doubting you in the slightest; just curious.

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I always felt the P220s were WAY more susceptible to the grip and poor lube problem than the 228s and 226s. Could be a .45 vs 9mm thing or just a P220 thing. IMO, the P220 has always been the most finicky of the P series.

[GJM]

^^^^


Dry fire, I presume. I was two for two at about 4-5K live rounds intervals each until I started to replace them periodically. I realized that perhaps I was dry firing more than I had thought. I then started to approximate my dry fire count but that became old real fast, so I just got a dedicated dry fire gun.
Of interest, since I moved from heavy to light trs, the breakages went down. I think that the light trs has more longevity.

The HK Parts description for the light TRS indicates it has greater longevity.

[GJM]

So it seems like the suspects are:

Lack of lubrication

Grip

Ammo

Certain P30 specimens

Or some combination of two or more of these factors.

Is HK helping you to figure it out?

[BaiHu]

I find this interesting b/c gtmtnbkr is an HK fan and he's ponying up data that shooters should know about. Even if it's making baby Odin colicky.

That being said, my new P30s have always needed about 2,000 rounds of 124gr or higher to 'break in'. Whether this is real, imagined, lore or unicorn fairy dust, it seemed to rectify things to a point that I would have 0 malfs for 1,000's of rounds after.

For the record, I've owned a P30L V3, 2 P30 V3s (still have one) and own 2 P30 V2s. All 3 V3s were BNIB and they all gave me a little trouble for the first 1500-2000 rounds. My 2 V2s were used and I never needed a 'break in'.

For the record, after running the 2000 round challenge, I do the following:

1) Clean them when I feel guilty or when I read the word 'clean' coming from ToddG anywhere on the interwebz.
2) Clean when they feel sluggish cycling.
3) Drool Otis cleaner/lubricant all over it once every couple of months just b/c it ended up in my bag years ago and I've yet to run out. I compensate for lack of cleaning/lubing with a super wetting once and a while.
4) Shoot on average 300-600 rounds/month.

I don't say this to 'defend' the motherland, rather I say this b/c it makes me ask the following:

1) How many of the users made the switch from Sig to HK and were they the more/less likely to have malfs?
2) How many of the users only experienced HKs and were they more/less likely to have malfs?
3) Were any of the P30s 'broken in'? If so, did they perform better/worse than those not 'broken in'?

Looking forward to more data...

[fixer]

I've had a few fail to extract moments with my P30LEM. I chalked it up to the gun being new and the possibility of the chamber being tight. In fact the first round I ever fired was a fail to load. There was a small burr on the case. The fail to extracts also correlate strongly to inexperienced shooters in my experience though.

[gtmtnbiker98]

So it seems like the suspects are:

Lack of lubrication

Grip

Ammo

Certain P30 specimens

Or some combination of two or more of these factors.

Is HK helping you to figure it out?

I haven't went that far, yet. I'm going to monitor this and am going to go the way of ensuring that each pistol is lubricated prior to the next range outing in late October early November. I do not believe this to be an ammo issue.

[gtmtnbiker98]

1) How many of the users made the switch from Sig to HK and were they the more/less likely to have malfs?
2) How many of the users only experienced HKs and were they more/less likely to have malfs?
3) Were any of the P30s 'broken in'? If so, did they perform better/worse than those not 'broken in'?

Looking forward to more data...

To provide a little more information, referring back to my range notes. One user, a provisional new hire (true rookie) was issued a pistol and 50 familiarization rounds (earlier in the week) prior to the last quarterly training. No issues reported from said provisional as a result of firing the 50 practice rounds. Provisional rookie comes by way of the Glock camp. This individual had the most issues of all, experiencing several failures to extract and perhaps a few failures to feed. When examining the pistol, the pistol was dry - absent any lubrication. I asked him if he had cleaned it upon issue and he stated "no." So the end-user is to blame on this one. However, it goes to prove that the venerable HK P30 is not infallible.

Another officer who experienced an issue has a track record for known issues. He also experienced similar stoppages back in March and again, his weapon was found to be dry - absent any lubrication.

Yet another issue involved a supervisor who took ownership regarding the lack of proper care and maintenance and surprisingly I know, upon examination, the pistol was found to be dry - absent any lubrication.

This is just my notes from one group who participated in range training and there was only five in this group. So 3 out of 5 users experienced stoppages. This is what prompted the alarm in the back of my mind.

The constant was the lack of lubrication and I can only surmise that the lack of lubrication was a key element coupled by weak or improper grip as a result of forcing these users to shoot out of their comfort zone. You know, the way you'll feel should you be forced to deploy lethal force in the field.

[LSP972]

Dry fire, I presume. I was two for two at about 4-5K live rounds intervals each until I started to replace them periodically. I realized that perhaps I was dry firing more than I had thought. I then started to approximate my dry fire count but that became old real fast, so I just got a dedicated dry fire gun.
Of interest, since I moved from heavy to light trs, the breakages went down. I think that the light trs has more longevity.

Hmmm… well, I don't do dry-fire practice, so that could be a factor. But thinking about it, I really don't see how dry firing works the spring any harder. In fact, I believe its just the opposite. For instance, I have installed the light TRS in a few pistols (USPs and HK45s) that immediately displayed very mushy reset; to the point of having to the push the trigger forward manually each time in dry fire on one USPc. But they reset just fine in live fire. Still, that's a reason I put the "medium" TRS in all of my pistols.

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