Interesting observations HK vs SIG: a Police Rangemaster's Perspective

[LSP552]

There was a change at some point in time in what Sig Corporate was shipping as "factory" mainsprings. Our agency received a bulk order of new "full weight" springs that were all noticeably lighter than those we'd been accustomed to over the years. A number of pistols began having issues with occasional light primer hits with both our standard factory training ammunition and our duty ammunition (both Federal, both well vetted over the years without issue). Sig maintained, during this process, that the springs hadn't changed and that the bulk batch we received were indeed stock 21 lb weight. They felt however substantially lighter and were NOT the equivalent of the 21 lbers we were used to. A switch back to true 21 lb mainsprings (via a separate warehoused source) remedied all our issues, but the situation left a bit of a sour taste. Just FWIW.

Re action work, I've had the opportunity to inspect several Sigs post AEP and I believe you're likely correct. It appeared that, in addition to polishing, etc… the hammer/mainsprings had been messed with yielding a substantially lighter DA pull in particular. Coincidentally, several of these had associated light primer strikes start occurring. In multiple cases, these were remedied by replacing the mainsprings with 19 or 21 lb ones.

t

Thanks Taadski! I was unaware that SIG may have changed their definition of what a 21lb mainspring was. I wonder if that was a bad batch or a deliberate change in spec and they just didn't want to say? Great info as always!

[Sammy1]

Speaking of Sigs I was at an LEO competition at the Sig Academy and a couple of NH Officers were having trouble with their P220s. Some big wig from Corp Sig was there and asked them what was going on. They told him the PD just spent big money on new mags and the feeding problems continued. The Sig guy summoned an armorer to the scene and he inspected the pistols and replaced the RSA for free. No more issues that day, the guns ran fine. I believe the guns were over ten years old and never had the RSA replaced. Seeing this first hand I am now skeptical of Agencies reporting problems with firearms. In this case the RSA replacement was way over due.

[GJM]

Thanks Taadski! I was unaware that SIG may have changed their definition of what a 21lb mainspring was. I wonder if that was a bad batch or a deliberate change in spec and they just didn't want to say? Great info as always!

Also not sure if the springs Taadski referenced were the cause of my P series issues, but the timing was similar. YVK, SteveB and I all ended up with ignition issues with P series models around that same time.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Mobil 1 20W50 VTWIN is my pistol lubricant and it works quite well.


20W50 (VTWIN)
P/P: -59.8 F
F/P: +518.0 F
V/100: 130.0 cSt
V/212: 17.7 cSt
TOR: 577.8 F
VI: 151

OK, JBP, I recommend Mobil 1 to folks for lube and I know what F/P means (flash point), but the rest is Greek. Would you please decode for me/us on the other specs?

[Symmetry]

Speaking of Sigs I was at an LEO competition at the Sig Academy and a couple of NH Officers were having trouble with their P220s. Some big wig from Corp Sig was there and asked them what was going on. They told him the PD just spent big money on new mags and the feeding problems continued. The Sig guy summoned an armorer to the scene and he inspected the pistols and replaced the RSA for free. No more issues that day, the guns ran fine. I believe the guns were over ten years old and never had the RSA replaced. Seeing this first hand I am now skeptical of Agencies reporting problems with firearms. In this case the RSA replacement was way over due.

We generally replace ours every 2500 rounds or so on the P220s, and try to get magazine springs replaced at about the same time to keep the cycle timing correct. The P220s that are worked on by me, and are inspected and properly lubed by me annually run fine......even with questionable operators However, just like a 1911 they are by no means a user friendly system for the average officer that only cleans and lubes their pistol after a biannual qualification. If I were to watch the average officer firing line in my agency, of all the Sigs I would bet money on for having the most malfunctions it would be with no doubt the P220 users. When the guns are run hard, even more hiccups as those stable shooting platforms break down. I ran the P220 myself for many years and in my hands the gun worked fine. So, just like a 1911, the dedicated user will make good use of it.

[taadski]

Thanks Taadski! I was unaware that SIG may have changed their definition of what a 21lb mainspring was. I wonder if that was a bad batch or a deliberate change in spec and they just didn't want to say? Great info as always!

They've always maintained that there hasn't been any change in their factory springs what so ever. So, yeah, not sure what was going on. My tin-foil-hat theory is that they lightened them on purpose in order to compete more effectively with other manufactures.

Also not sure if the springs Taadski referenced were the cause of my P series issues, but the timing was similar. YVK, SteveB and I all ended up with ignition issues with P series models around that same time.

G,

Hadn't all three of those pistols had factory shop action work done? I thought I recalled you saying that. I know in YVK's 228 that was the case.

[GJM]

Yes, all three, and they all went back to Sig for subsequent repair. YVK continued to have problems with that 228 after it came back from Sig again.

It would be interesting to know the weight of the springs that were causing ignition problems. Were they a little lighter than stock or a lot lighter? People reduce spring weight in the 92 with the D spring and lighter springs without issue, and in the HK line without ignition problems.

[LSP972]

People reduce spring weight in the 92 with the D spring and lighter springs without issue...

Not all. When grandson #2 announced he wanted a "real M9" (as opposed to no steenkin' 92F civilian model ), I ran across one that a fellow had put a supposedly real replacement government/military slide onto a commercial M9 frame, along with the better hammer and D spring. The pistol was cherry, seemed okay, so I bought it. I immediately noted erratic ignition with the Beretta OEM .22 kit, and sporadic light hits with the Euro-Pellet slide and factory ball ammo. I put in a standard-weight main spring and all was well.

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[GJM]

.22 is a problem as regards ignition in both semi-auto pistols and revolvers.

The issues I experienced with the Sig were with Federal and Winchester LE ammo and not hard primer military or Russian type stuff.

No idea what was up with your Beretta, but it could also be related to the trigger bar. Bill Wilson has been experimenting with lighter springs in his 92 pistols, and getting crazy light pulls in DA and SA with complete reliability with mainstream US primers. I had problems with ignition with an older 92G- SD and it related to the trigger bar. Perhaps a heavier hammer spring might cover up that problem.

[jondoe297]

Not all. When grandson #2 announced he wanted a "real M9" (as opposed to no steenkin' 92F civilian model ), I ran across one that a fellow had put a supposedly real replacement government/military slide onto a commercial M9 frame, along with the better hammer and D spring. The pistol was cherry, seemed okay, so I bought it. I immediately noted erratic ignition with the Beretta OEM .22 kit, and sporadic light hits with the Euro-Pellet slide and factory ball ammo. I put in a standard-weight main spring and all was well.

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Did you ever remove the extractor to get a peek at the firing pin channel? I've seen a few start developing light strikes when gunk builds up in there. Going up in spring weight fixes it, until the build up gets worse.