Treating the Carbine as a Large Pistol

[LSP972]

The sad fact is that far too many people who attend training classes aren't there for the right reasons. They're often training groupies who want to brag about the trainers they have certificates from, or as a means to show their genitals are bigger than the rest because they've, "got the t-shirt". The people who attend training on their own dime and who actually want to learn a new skill or refine what they already have are actually in the minority. Training has, in a way, become it's own fashion statement within our culture. Consequently, far too many students really have no interest in pushing themselves or their limits. Therefore, you see classes taught at point blank range, both with pistol and rifle. The farther the range, the more evident your personal weaknesses become and most don't want to pay for a personal, public suckfest. Keep the ranges short and students leave happy with their t-shirt and they keep paying for more.

Extremely well-stated.

The other side of that coin is "trainers" who are more concerned with the number of paid students than the quality of the training, or accomodating some numb-nuts who should stick to selling shoes that is holding the rest of the class back... guys that you or I would, politely as possible, refund their money and send their ass up the street.

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[John Hearne]

The second reason is that most people who show up for open-enrollment classes probably can't hit much past 100, which is why the instructors who do teach longer-range carbine work have classes specifically for that. Keeps the knuckleheads out.

I suspect it's a lot of this. I recently attended a carbine class that had pre-requisites and the number of people who could hit a bull at 100 yards with a rifle was small.

Were I king, any carbine class would require an Appleseed Rifleman's patch for entry.

[okie john]

I recently attended a carbine class that had pre-requisites and the number of people who could hit a bull at 100 yards with a rifle was small.

The class I mentioned started with basic rifle marksmanship. Mac talked us through building solid positions, then we checked zeros at 25 yards, then we checked zeros at 100 yards. Only after we had demonstrated the ability to shoot decent 100-yard groups did we move to the run/dodge/jump stuff. I fully believe that Mac would not have permitted the fun stuff if people weren't up to it.

Accountability and all that...


Okie John

[HCM]

Many good points already regarding student ability, desire to make students "feel good" and range related issues.

It seems to me most of those who do teach rifle class is beyond 100 yards have their own facilities, such as Spartan Tactical up near DFW.

[davisj]

Would carbine inside 100 yards be considered "walking" whereas mid and long range are running? If so, given the number of normal earth people like me who attend training, perhaps there is a greater need to teach walking. While plausible I think it unlikely most civilians would have a great need for defensive use of a carbine beyond 100 yards. That doesn't mean the ability to hit at 100+ isn't valuable, just a matter of playing the odds. I shoot my pistols beyond 7 yards to develop skill that is directly applicable to shooting them within 7 yards. Perhaps the same holds true with carbines, but maybe to a lesser degree.

[jlw]

So what your saying is that people spending all of this time shooting carbines at distances at which they could be highly effective with a shotgun....

***The above post was brought to you by the Coalition of Folks Tired of Every Time a Shotgun is Mentioned Some Guy is Compelled to Interject That a Carbine Is Better and We Are Seeking Equal Time.

[DamonL]

Historically, two different approaches typified by the Clint Smith vs Gunsite approach.

Clint Smith believed the carbine was most often used at distances of the length or width of a car, or width of a room. Consequently, his training focused primarily on these distances, in classes such as his "Urban Combat" ....

I attended Clint's "Urban Rifle" class at Thunder Ranch TX. He was a very early proponent of using a carbine at pistol distances. Most shooting was inside 50 yds and we actually shot some pistol type drills like 2 to the body and 1 to the head at 7 yds.

[jlw]

One factor would be teaching manipulations doesn't really require longer ranges.

Another would be that the "typical" confrontation takes place within a car length/room length; so, why would that really be any different with a carbine?

For the same reasons that we shoot pistols at 25 yards and greater would be the same reasons to shoot a carbine at greater distances, but wouldn't it stand to reason to spend time/ammo on the most likely problem most of the time?

Finally, as someone else mentioned, it's an ego thing. The folks seeking entertrainment just want to blast away. Making them shoot at distances where they might miss is counterproductive to what the paying customer wants.

[GJM]

Inside 300 yards, shooting a carbine really just is good pistol trigger control, having a good zero, and knowing rifle positions to get steady.

[LHS]

So what your saying is that people spending all of this time shooting carbines at distances at which they could be highly effective with a shotgun....

***The above post was brought to you by the Coalition of Folks Tired of Every Time a Shotgun is Mentioned Some Guy is Compelled to Interject That a Carbine Is Better and We Are Seeking Equal Time.

Is there a membership application for this club?