Neither do I. I do however, prefer to learn from the best. It seems to really work out well that way.Originally Posted by breakingtime91
Neither do I. I do however, prefer to learn from the best. It seems to really work out well that way.
Read the piece this morning and I thought Pannone did a professional job reasonably explaining his thoughts and position. I saw one response from Petty this afternoon and it was complimentary of Pannone's piece. I am no more enamored, generally, with the Temple Index at this time than I am with the high port, as I understand it. In the limited role Petty is describing the T/I, as Nyeti discussed - a movement specific position rather than a ready position, I can see how it might be of benefit - within those parameters and I'll be willing to try it.
Am trying to get to one of Petty's courses for his vehicle centric material, but I'll hopefully approach the T/I with an open mind as that is only one part of his course. From what I have seen of Petty's material there is some difference from what we (other instructors, investigators @ my office) have gotten vehicle-wise from Reitz / ITTS / LAPD. Heck, I also want to catch a Pannone class and I'll try the high port there even though I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the benefit to it in the street cop patrol realm.
Anyway, as mentioned, so far it nice to see a professional discussion involving differing points of view.
That is a good reminder, thank you.
I didn't start this thread to pick on or denigrate any instructors, though I can see why someone might think that from the way I phrased my first post. That is not my intent. Like many of you, I pay out of pocket for some of my training. I prefer not to waste my personal time and money, and so I have a running list of people I want to train with. My A list, so to speak. Doesn't mean there aren't good trainers out there that aren't on my list.
Having said that, what I need and want from an instructor is likely very different from what the market needs and wants. That's just how it goes.
The training market is currently saturated, and there are too many trainers trying to carve a niche out for themselves. Because of that, it sometimes seems to me that some of the people who are more recent additions to the training field are making stuff up just to be different. TI reminds me of Sul, in that it may work in certain limited situations, but there are better techniques available. Nonetheless, Sul seems to have gained a foothold as a viable technique. Again, not one of the top trainers that I associate with or have trained with teach or advocate Sul. As it is with TI.
Caveat: I have no action experience; I am so just a guy who does this for kicks. So I really am asking: what's the au courant alternative to Sul these days? My understanding is that there are pretty much 3 ways the muzzle can go: up, out or down. I guess we can now add a 4th: sort of partly up, partly out and partly to the support side, if I read the article in the OP correctly.
I dunno; really. One guy I've worked with a bit (Matt Graham) did a good job of explaining the time/place for TI--largely a live, expanded version of Darryl's post. I bought it, but I've not yet had to climb out of a car and put rounds on someone (knock on wood).
So what is the current thought on break options?
I'm just not sure I see why. If it is an "trademark" technique, aka the Haley-Costa Mag Flip Ejection Port Stare, in order to give an instructor or group of instructors a way to differentiate themselves then so be it but as a fighting method it seems pretty flawed. I've done a fair amount of gun handling and gun play with pistols around cars and I can't think of an instance where I would have needed to Temple Index. That all being said I haven't shot any of the Petty/Fisher Classes.
While not an SME and just another dude on the forum, but I will vouch for Will Petty's background as having real honest to goodness experience and worked a very busy area and has actually done what he is teaching and it is not theory based. When Defoor started teaching this as a movement and general purpose technique, particularly to LEO's because of "failures of the low ready".....yeah I had a problem with that, especially from someone with no LE experience. If he wants to teach it, and people want to pay for the training and use it.....okay. In the case of how Will Perry teaches it, it is experienced based and in the realm he teaches it.
When I first saw Will and Steve Fisher teaching it, I was initially in the WTF camp based in seeing how it was being used during Defoor's classes. I took Will to Sushi lunch specifically to find out first hand why he was teaching it and how because I respect Will and know his experience level. How he teaches it and how it is used and it made total sense. He and Steve are not using it as a ready position or a general purpose movement technique. It is "a way" to safely perform some specific tasks, and in the areas they use it, it is viable and something I would use in the scenarios I listed earlier. As far as how it is apparently being used by others.....not a chance and will go with SLG as stupid in my world. Might be great in other folks world, but not mine.
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
Quick question, I was of the opinion that Kyle uses it for movement, like running, and the high ready as his ready position of choice. Is that incorrect?
thanks!
The pictures I saw were guys running with a gun pinned to the side of their head, and that was confirmed with a student in the class as a movement technique and a high muzzle as a ready.
Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard
"If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".
I'm about to hit the hay and then out all day in Wamego for the class, but will respond at length sometime after. In short, what nyeti has referenced IRT Defoor using it as a movement technique, coupled with him demonstrating it as a safe way to hang out in close proximity to groups of friendlies. I was not referencing high port, but used the term vertical port. Perhaps we are thinking about the same position, just describing it differently. To clarify, I mean to describe the muzzle being straight up, along side the head, as a pistol would be for TI. Defoor was talking both carbine and pistol, but since it was a pistol class, he only demonstrated it with a handgun.
You don't gotta love it. You just gotta do it.
Nyeti,
Lets leave the silly titles out, shall we? If you say Petty has experience, that's good enough.
Experience doesn't always mean that correct answers are found, since I know a metric ton of experienced guys who don't really know what they are doing, but again, if you say he uses it in very limited, specific circumstances and that you think it works for them, that's also fine. Maybe I'll get to see him teach it at some point.
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