Temple Index

[LSP972]

So, we are now 8 pages in, and have we learned anything new, or solved any problems?

This is what I have learned; some folks are so wrapped up in not muzzling ANYTHING that, I suspect, if the flag goes up for them, they are going to be so concerned about what "style" they are using that they will not be able to maintain situational awareness.

As for problem solving… I suppose that depends on what you consider to be a problem. The laser rule is all fine and good, but I daresay you (the collective "you") simply won't be able to avoid violating it when you are worried about getting shot, if a lot of people are around. Finger off the trigger is still, IMO, the best hedge against shooting the wrong folks or things.

Post #80 pretty much covers what I would do (and did) in those situations- when armed with a handgun OR shoulder gun; i.e., muzzle depressed- and I see no reason to alter it significantly. So I see no problem that needs solving. I do see some re-inventing of the wheel… but that is beyond the scope of this discussion.

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[JHC]

This is what I have learned; some folks are so wrapped up in not muzzling ANYTHING that, I suspect, if the flag goes up for them, they are going to be so concerned about what "style" they are using that they will not be able to maintain situational awareness.

As for problem solving… I suppose that depends on what you consider to be a problem. The laser rule is all fine and good, but I daresay you (the collective "you") simply won't be able to avoid violating it when you are worried about getting shot, if a lot of people are around. Finger off the trigger is still, IMO, the best hedge against shooting the wrong folks or things.

Post #80 pretty much covers what I would do (and did) in those situations- when armed with a handgun OR shoulder gun; i.e., muzzle depressed- and I see no reason to alter it significantly. So I see no problem that needs solving. I do see some re-inventing of the wheel… but that is beyond the scope of this discussion.

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Hey that finger think is what Hack kept harping on when it's all chaos and you're moving around others.

[KevinB]

Knowing that folks will get lazed/flagged is different than being careless, and unless it is absolutely imperative to lase someone one should do their best to avoid it

FINGER is #1, however a lot of time, folks get lazy and say "my finger was off the trigger, what's the big deal" and miss the point of what safety is all about - for fingers can get caught - or folks outrun their headlights and cheat on the trigger, as well stuff can get in and pull a trigger.

[LSP972]

I am aware of all that. I am not advocating carelessness.

I AM saying that "tools in the toolbox" only goes so far before you run the risk of short-circuiting yourself during intense stress.

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[KevinB]

I am aware of all that. I am not advocating carelessness.

I AM saying that "tools in the toolbox" only goes so far before you run the risk of short-circuiting yourself during intense stress.

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I agree fully -- the reason I keep pushing my comment is there is a BIG difference between the knowledge and experience levels here.


You notice DB is constantly being a "safety nazi" in his classes to patrol officers -- the reason is, [as I understand it] he understands that most of them have a shallow experience pool and he is trying to wire them right at the start - so when things go sideways and they do deviate a tad, it's not deviations from walking the wire edge, its moving closer to the edge, but not falling off.
It will take then a multitude of errors for an accident as opposed to one.



Back to my original comment that I did not address earlier to TGS: - not specific to a vehicle, but I see a lot of positions I could use in a vehicle or out that I've used operationally that did not flag folks, and I believe are superior to TI, for moving, communicating, scanning etc.
I'm curious to the thought put in to the positioning for folks who would be wearing earpro or melon covers outside a training environment? Your really going to position the pistol against ones head?


I

[LSP972]

I agree fully -- the reason I keep pushing my comment is there is a BIG difference between the knowledge and experience levels here.

Got it. No argument there.

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[SouthNarc]

As I understand what's being called a temple index one is physically attaching the gun hand to the side of the head for movement or other purposes. That's what distinguishes TI from other muzzle up positions regardless of what they're being called.

Am I correct in this? If so, can someone tell me why I'd want to do that versus avert the muzzle straight up if I need to? I've been around for a while now....way before the interwebz when the only open enrollment roadshow was John Farnam and Chuck Taylor. My first time through Mid-South, John Shaw was still teaching and Ross was cutting the grass. I can't for the LIFE of me ever remember seeing someone stick a gun to their head.

I've hung below a hatch on a ladder and held a pistol muzzle up. I've hung on a rope holding a pistol and averted it both up and down. I've cleared an attic on my hands and knees after it was filled with gas wearing a protective mask and a head mount thermal.

I think I've probably done every oddball thing that's mission related while holding a pistol, in every kind of environment imaginable around other police officers, citizens, and bad guys. I've never seen this advocated anywhere by anyone until recently.

I'm not trying to say it sucks by qualifying my experience or tenure...I REALLY just can't see why or get my head wrapped around ever having to do it.

Can someone explain it to me and tell me WHY sticking the gun to the side of your head is preferable to just pointing the gun in the air if you need to?

[JHC]

As I understand what's being called a temple index one is physically attaching the gun hand to the side of the head for movement or other purposes. That's what distinguishes TI from other muzzle up positions regardless of what they're being called.

Am I correct in this? If so, can someone tell me why I'd want to do that versus avert the muzzle straight up if I need to? I've been around for a while now....way before the interwebz when the only open enrollment roadshow was John Farnam and Chuck Taylor. My first time through Mid-South, John Shaw was still teaching and Ross was cutting the grass. I can't for the LIFE of me ever remember seeing someone stick a gun to their head.

I've hung below a hatch on a ladder and held a pistol muzzle up. I've hung on a rope holding a pistol and averted it both up and down. I've cleared an attic on my hands and knees after it was filled with gas wearing a protective mask and a head mount thermal.

I think I've probably done every oddball thing that's mission related while holding a pistol, in every kind of environment imaginable around other police officers, citizens, and bad guys. I've never seen this advocated anywhere by anyone until recently.

I'm not trying to say it sucks by qualifying my experience or tenure...I REALLY just can't see why or get my head wrapped around ever having to do it.

Can someone explain it to me and tell me WHY sticking the gun to the side of your head is preferable to just pointing the gun in the air if you need to?

I'm glad you spelled all that out. I was lumping just pointing up "half Sabrina" in with TI.

[LSP972]

... "half Sabrina"....

By golly, cpd2110, I think we have managed to rejuvenate the term!

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[Default.mp3]

As I understand what's being called a temple index one is physically attaching the gun hand to the side of the head for movement or other purposes. That's what distinguishes TI from other muzzle up positions regardless of what they're being called.

Am I correct in this? If so, can someone tell me why I'd want to do that versus avert the muzzle straight up if I need to? I've been around for a while now....way before the interwebz when the only open enrollment roadshow was John Farnam and Chuck Taylor. My first time through Mid-South, John Shaw was still teaching and Ross was cutting the grass. I can't for the LIFE of me ever remember seeing someone stick a gun to their head.

I've hung below a hatch on a ladder and held a pistol muzzle up. I've hung on a rope holding a pistol and averted it both up and down. I've cleared an attic on my hands and knees after it was filled with gas wearing a protective mask and a head mount thermal.

I think I've probably done every oddball thing that's mission related while holding a pistol, in every kind of environment imaginable around other police officers, citizens, and bad guys. I've never seen this advocated anywhere by anyone until recently.

I'm not trying to say it sucks by qualifying my experience or tenure...I REALLY just can't see why or get my head wrapped around ever having to do it.

Can someone explain it to me and tell me WHY sticking the gun to the side of your head is preferable to just pointing the gun in the air if you need to?

Let's see if I've got enough rope to hang myself. The following is all from recollection, and may not be totally in line with Petty's actual thinking process.

Petty first got the temple index idea from some higher speed Brits he met while doing contract instructor work overseas. The Brits floated the pistol, rather than attached it to themselves, which Petty disliked due to having less muzzle control, particularly in the confines of a vehicle during bailout, during movement around friendlies, and/or when fatigued.

For vehicle bailouts, Petty argued that the temple index gives one a relatively easy way to insure that one doesn't muzzle themselves while working the seatbelt, doors, etc., while also presenting a lower snag profile. For movement around friendlies, to minimize extraneous movement, the temple index allowed one to stay in the closest proximity with friendlies for the most part, while still preventing any muzzling issues. Obviously both of these can be mostly replicated by a high muzzle up position, but as noted previously, the temple index gives more muzzle control.

Also note that Petty told many students, myself included, that they had extraneously used the temple index, throughout the course of, uh... well, the course, times when a ready position or more orthodox movement position (e.g., high port) would have been more effective.

FWIW, I envision myself using the temple index in fairly niche areas: vehicle bailouts, close proximity movement around friendlies, and... that might be it. And that's only because I've not had any other vehicle training, so I'm open to better methods in respect to vehicle bailouts. I will note that, just personally, I do like having a consistent physical index point, which the temple index does afford, at least for movement around friendlies. That, and perhaps usage as part of the scan-and-assess ritual when on the line with other folks/others behind the line and told to do a 360°.