Temple Index

[JHC]

Yup. It was a fall during a sprint for cover. Airsoft gun obviously not real. I have folks shoot themselves with sim all the time when doing clinch work and ground work.

Did they fire from their ready position or lose control of the muzzle in the fall?

[SouthNarc]

Did they fire from their ready position or lose control of the muzzle in the fall?

Fell forward pinning his forearm under his torso and put a pellet under his chin.

[SouthNarc]

I've also had a student reholster a sim gun in a VG2 when it was on the belt, and NOT shoot himself in the dick after ND'ing a round believe it or not. I probably see more people shoot themselves than most guys teaching just because of the nature of the coursework.

[Jay Cunningham]

Roger that buddy. I appreciate you bearing with my hyper detailed inquiry but it seems like that a good portion of this thread is not really clear as to:

1) What a Temple Index is.
2) How to do it.
3) Where it comes from
4) Why do it.

"The Why Game" should be played much more often by all parties involved in this (and related) field of endeavor. Clearly defining terms, talking about context, and stating terminal objectives make the difference between accomplishing something useful and running around in a circle.

Thanks for being a great role model in this regard, SouthNarc.

[LOKNLOD]

I, too, appreciate the clarity provided via that last line of questioning.

So the actual benefits of a Temple Index would be:

A) The gun not floating

B) The muzzle being above your head

C) The gun can literally be held when in torso contact with other people without flagging them

Those are arguable points in favor of the TI versus a standard muzzle pointed straight up position. Any others?

I just think there are other ways to do what it seeks to do without what I perceive to be it's disadvantages.

To further discuss, given those arguable points supporting TI, what are some of the specific disadvantages you perceive, versus other muzzle averted positions?


As I noted way back towards page one, if I'm involved in something, there's a high probability I've got small kids with me, and they are either at my feet or even being carried on my off side (picture kid on hip, leg across in front and back, arms around neck kind of position). If all three are with me, potentially carrying one and two at my feet even. Some sort of upward muzzle averted position makes a lot of sense to me in that context, and I think the three positives outlined are all in line with concerns for those situations.

[Sigfan26]

Will Petty and Steve Fisher teach excellent (and underrated) courses that cover, among other things, temple index. I've only trained with Will (went through LLVCQB twice). Will speaks very highly of Mr. Fisher (and routinely steals his equipment). Either will cover the subject in their courses (and you learn lots of other things as well). If interested, get in to a class!

[johncorey]

IRT pics, Costa just photo-dumped roughly 100 or so pics on his FB of a recent (I assume) pistol class of his. In numerous pics, students can be seen running, as in physically moving their legs in quick cycles, utilizing the Temple Index method. The pics clearly illustrate that regardless of how Petty/Fisher/Costa are teaching TI, the human factor coming into play has the myriad of pistols floating around various contact points of each students head. Some higher, some lower, some forward, some more rear canted. So that could be chocked up as a training issue and practical implementation VS theoretical lesson plan. One student's TI stance actually shows her muzzle facing to the rear, more so than vertical. The takeaway for me from these pics is that Temple Index is now clearly being taught as a movement technique with a handgun. Not merely a moving in and around the confined space of a vehicle loaded with friendlies. So there is that.

I have heard very good things about Petty's Vehicle CQB class, and would like to take part one day. Not necessarily for the TI portion, but more so the opportunity to train in and around cars while shooting through, over, under and out of them. Not many options on the playing field for that currently of which I am aware.

[Steve f]

Like you, I should probably stick to the revolver section:-)

I have done a lot of vehicle work, both shooting from and shooting into. Singleton and team. America and overseas. With the top of the food chain and without. Numerous closed schools. Taught them as well, to more than a couple of units and more than a couple of country's militaries. What experience and training do Petty and Fisher have that they can teach vehicle fighting? Not picking on them, actually curious. I thought Fisher was a corrections guy. No idea who Petty is.

If you are engaging a target from the driver's side or the passenger's side, as you mentioned above, then you are shooting, no? If you draw your gun, it goes to the threat, not to the side of your head. What does the TI do for you in those situations? The internet is never really good for learning techniques, but I really don't understand how TI gives you any advantage.

Correct i was a corrections guy I'm also a reserve officer for another dept i make no bones about my background at all no reason too, i assisted in wills program as an AI to make sure nothing bad happens.

[Steve f]

The way Petty taught temple index should not have any noticeable loss of peripheral vision, assuming it was done correctly. Without muffs, the palm should be right under the earlobe; with muffs, use the thumb as an index point, by placing it in the rear of the ear pro.

correct as we were talking about it we added the fact that we keep the magwell and gun back and between the ear and mouth to keep the FOV clear as possible and if scanning from that position always scan to the gun side first

[Steve f]

TI, gun up, 10 gun, high gun, etc names around for a long time, Mike P is a friend of mine we have talked this over many times....

i look at it as a place to put the gun when it doesn't need to be in another place such as the person with small children under foot or mass pile we see often of officer and that one or two whom are still stuck in low ready position....
the position is not used as a default ready there are option based on your world gun is up down in holster or compressed or compressed high ready or is between you and them