Temple Index

[SLG]

I forget who was involved in the discussion earlier, but a bunch of us think that the Temple Index is pretty stupid, and afaik, the people advocating it are, shall we say, not on my A list of people to train with.

Mike Pannone does a good job of explaining why that is.


http://soldiersystems.net/2015/07/25...ne-29/#respond

[Sigfan26]

It has limited use. When I trained with Will Petty, he did a very good job of explaining it.

[HCM]

Could we get a photo of two of the High Port as Mr. Pannone is describing it?

[LOKNLOD]

Could we get a photo of two of the High Port as Mr. Pannone is describing it?

I'd like to see it too.

I don't remember having a dog in the temple index fight, but I'm interested in learning more and evaluating a muzzle up technique. When I'm out and about, I usually have three very petite little girls in tow and knowing they stick to me like glue, especially if something scary were to happen...

[johncorey]

The first time I heard about Temple Index, I thought it was a satire piece, because if memory serves correct, Breach-Bang-Clear wrote the article. I skimmed that article, but shortly thereafter I came across another one touting its merits. I agree with Mike Panone explanation, which as he states his heavily derived from his Army time, and subsequent time with the FAMS.

At the Defoor class back in March, Kyle brought up the Temple Index deal, although he did not refer to it as TI, since the SEALs have been running muzzles (long guns & pistols) up since forever, so for him it was not something shiny new thing, but rather how he came up in the Teams with that technique. He stated that it is used exclusively throughout SQT and actual Team train ups, because it works best for close quarters movements for a team of dudes. He demonstrated that a group of dudes could be within close proximity to one another without flagging each other. This is true, presuming that A) all friendlies are on the same floor of the structure, B) there are no non-combantants on any floors above that said group of the structure, and of course C) you do not now, nor in the extremely near future require to put your gun into action. We debated back and forth a bit about the merits of the vatical port/temple index, because I firmly believe that picking up a sight picture is far easier, smoother AND faster when raising the gun to your eyes, instead of having to lower a gun to them. This is something any lay person can test in the comfort of their own dwellings.

Defoor went on to say that he and his company have done a few training packages for the 75th, and now they (didn't specify number of dudes) can be found running their guns vertical port/temple index as well. I did not point out the circular logic of "we trained them this way -> they run their guns this way now -> therefore the concept is validated". I have ever seen any dude from Regiment run vertical port/temple index during OEF. Obviously I did not see them all, nor all the time, you get the drift. I do find it interesting that given their close relationship to the Army's only CT unit (which does not run TI, never has run TI, and never will run TI), Regiment would implement a change in weapons handling away from what has been validated across many conflicts and training evolutions.

When I asked Kyle why he thought the Army's unit did not run TI, he didn't have an answer to it. This was not a "gotcha" attempt on my part, but a legitimate question as to why one side of the house is virtually categorically against it, while the other trains that way from the beginning of SQT, the baseline course for all dudes in the vanilla pipeline.

My bottom line is that there will always be unavoidable situations when you will be flagging something which/someone who you do not intend to destroy. Sitting in a helo, muzzles are down so as to not shoot through the driveshaft/rotors/lines =flagging everyone not directly above/even to you. Sitting in a vehicle, muzzles are up so as to not shoot through the driveshaft/tires/lines =flagging your gunner+maybe hitting a NonComb during a potential ND. Sitting at my desk typing this up =flagging my plumbing because AIWB.

[Dagga Boy]

For the way Will and Steve teach it......it is very viable. Driver of a two man (or more) vehicle needs to draw and engage at a 4 'clock threat......yep, it works great. Passenger working out the drivers side, same benefits. As a means of exiting without hanging up in belts, it is viable. I like the LAPD method of using the steering wheel as a guide out for the driver, but the TI is viable. As a movement technique taught be others......I think it is stupid like others. As a do it all ready.......as big a clownshoes as using SUL for everything.

It is a viable "A way" for a couple situations. It is "A way" that I like for dealing with threats to the rear in a vehicle, and it works well to prevent safety violations. For those who want to come up with neat words for having physical contact with your own gun against your body as making a neat idea for all sorts of stuff.......knock yourselves out, but I generally want my muzzle as far away from my own head as I possibly can.

I actually see far more use for the TI than for what Pannone is using, but to each his own. Most know my range rules are simple. Don't violate any of the four safety rules and I don't really care...........problem comes in that many using these techniques use them at the wrong time, poor application, undisciplined, etc. and violate safety rules, in which case I do care. That is in our program. If other folks are good with safety violations and issues in their classes, that is fine and I gave up caring.

[SLG]

The first time I heard about Temple Index, I thought it was a satire piece, because if memory serves correct, Breach-Bang-Clear wrote the article. I skimmed that article, but shortly thereafter I came across another one touting its merits. I agree with Mike Panone explanation, which as he states his heavily derived from his Army time, and subsequent time with the FAMS.

At the Defoor class back in March, Kyle brought up the Temple Index deal, although he did not refer to it as TI, since the SEALs have been running muzzles (long guns & pistols) up since forever, so for him it was not something shiny new thing, but rather how he came up in the Teams with that technique. He stated that it is used exclusively throughout SQT and actual Team train ups, because it works best for close quarters movements for a team of dudes. He demonstrated that a group of dudes could be within close proximity to one another without flagging each other. This is true, presuming that A) all friendlies are on the same floor of the structure, B) there are no non-combantants on any floors above that said group of the structure, and of course C) you do not now, nor in the extremely near future require to put your gun into action. We debated back and forth a bit about the merits of the vatical port/temple index, because I firmly believe that picking up a sight picture is far easier, smoother AND faster when raising the gun to your eyes, instead of having to lower a gun to them. This is something any lay person can test in the comfort of their own dwellings.

Defoor went on to say that he and his company have done a few training packages for the 75th, and now they (didn't specify number of dudes) can be found running their guns vertical port/temple index as well. I did not point out the circular logic of "we trained them this way -> they run their guns this way now -> therefore the concept is validated". I have ever seen any dude from Regiment run vertical port/temple index during OEF. Obviously I did not see them all, nor all the time, you get the drift. I do find it interesting that given their close relationship to the Army's only CT unit (which does not run TI, never has run TI, and never will run TI), Regiment would implement a change in weapons handling away from what has been validated across many conflicts and training evolutions.

When I asked Kyle why he thought the Army's unit did not run TI, he didn't have an answer to it. This was not a "gotcha" attempt on my part, but a legitimate question as to why one side of the house is virtually categorically against it, while the other trains that way from the beginning of SQT, the baseline course for all dudes in the vanilla pipeline.

My bottom line is that there will always be unavoidable situations when you will be flagging something which/someone who you do not intend to destroy. Sitting in a helo, muzzles are down so as to not shoot through the driveshaft/rotors/lines =flagging everyone not directly above/even to you. Sitting in a vehicle, muzzles are up so as to not shoot through the driveshaft/tires/lines =flagging your gunner+maybe hitting a NonComb during a potential ND. Sitting at my desk typing this up =flagging my plumbing because AIWB.

Are you talking about Kyle doing this with carbines or pistols or both? No NSW team that I have ever worked with did this with pistols. With a carbine, it is not really controversial at all. Also, high port and high gun are both very different from TI.

I've shot with Kyle, though it has been a number of years. It was a closed range, and he wasn't doing TI with a pistol back then, though maybe it just never came up.

[breakingtime91]

I don't right off any position without trying it. I found temple index a great tool in certain situations, obviously YMMV




*I did enjoy the article though, good read! thanks for sharing

[SLG]

For the way Will and Steve teach it......it is very viable. Driver of a two man (or more) vehicle needs to draw and engage at a 4 'clock threat......yep, it works great. Passenger working out the drivers side, same benefits. As a means of exiting without hanging up in belts, it is viable. I like the LAPD method of using the steering wheel as a guide out for the driver, but the TI is viable. As a movement technique taught be others......I think it is stupid like others. As a do it all ready.......as big a clownshoes as using SUL for everything.

It is a viable "A way" for a couple situations. It is "A way" that I like for dealing with threats to the rear in a vehicle, and it works well to prevent safety violations. For those who want to come up with neat words for having physical contact with your own gun against your body as making a neat idea for all sorts of stuff.......knock yourselves out, but I generally want my muzzle as far away from my own head as I possibly can.

Like you, I should probably stick to the revolver section:-)

I have done a lot of vehicle work, both shooting from and shooting into. Singleton and team. America and overseas. With the top of the food chain and without. Numerous closed schools. Taught them as well, to more than a couple of units and more than a couple of country's militaries. What experience and training do Petty and Fisher have that they can teach vehicle fighting? Not picking on them, actually curious. I thought Fisher was a corrections guy. No idea who Petty is.

If you are engaging a target from the driver's side or the passenger's side, as you mentioned above, then you are shooting, no? If you draw your gun, it goes to the threat, not to the side of your head. What does the TI do for you in those situations? The internet is never really good for learning techniques, but I really don't understand how TI gives you any advantage.

[Default.mp3]

What experience and training do Petty and Fisher have that they can teach vehicle fighting? Not picking on them, actually curious. I thought Fisher was a corrections guy. No idea who Petty is.

IIRC, Petty is primarily from a LE background, with some minor experience as a contractor, doing an instructor gig out in Dubai. He's been teaching his vehicles class for quite some time now, I want to say since the mid-2000s?