barrier blind question

[Moonshot]

I've been reading as much as I can on barrier blind rifle loads, and there is almost too much data available for me to make a lot of sense of it all. Specifically, I've been looking at Speer's 62gr GDSP, Federal's 62gr LE223T3, Federal's 62gr F223FS1 Fusion, and Corbon's 62gr DPX.

The T3 is currently available - at $1.95 per round! I've found the Federal Fusion available at about $0.90 per round (same price range as Speer's GDSP, but this is nowhere to be found). Corbon is also not readily available, and is not my first choice in any caliber.

Most of my firearm money for the next few years is allocated to training - roughly 60% handgun and 40% carbine. This will eat up a fair amount of dollars, both in tuition and training ammo. Much of what money I have left for ammo is intended to augment my supply of non-barrier blind Black Hills 68gr and 75gr OTM ammo.

I could invest in some Hornady 5.56 T2 TAP (I can get this for $1.15 per round), but as I understand it, this gives be more fragmentation range over my BH ammo (with the BH 68gr being particularly short range at about 65 yards, 115 yards for the BH 75gr), but the T2 is still not a barrier blind round.

My question...how badly does one need a cache of barrier blind ammo? I am not LE or MIL, and I do not rely on my carbine for HD. It is more for a breakdown in civil order, when LE may not be available (although at that point, it may get drafted into HD).

If some barrier blind ammo is indeed recommended, is Federal's T3 worth the premium price tag (I can get it today, but it's pretty much double the price of everything else)?

I've read Doc's sticky where he recommends training over worrying about the "best" ammo, and I am trying to accomplish this objective, but as long as I am going to buy some premium defenese ammo (maybe just a few hundred rounds), I may as well buy the best I can get.

Any thoughts, critiques or recommendations?

[Unobtanium]

I've been reading as much as I can on barrier blind rifle loads, and there is almost too much data available for me to make a lot of sense of it all. Specifically, I've been looking at Speer's 62gr GDSP, Federal's 62gr LE223T3, Federal's 62gr F223FS1 Fusion, and Corbon's 62gr DPX.

The T3 is currently available - at $1.95 per round! I've found the Federal Fusion available at about $0.90 per round (same price range as Speer's GDSP, but this is nowhere to be found). Corbon is also not readily available, and is not my first choice in any caliber.

Most of my firearm money for the next few years is allocated to training - roughly 60% handgun and 40% carbine. This will eat up a fair amount of dollars, both in tuition and training ammo. Much of what money I have left for ammo is intended to augment my supply of non-barrier blind Black Hills 68gr and 75gr OTM ammo.

I could invest in some Hornady 5.56 T2 TAP (I can get this for $1.15 per round), but as I understand it, this gives be more fragmentation range over my BH ammo (with the BH 68gr being particularly short range at about 65 yards, 115 yards for the BH 75gr), but the T2 is still not a barrier blind round.

My question...how badly does one need a cache of barrier blind ammo? I am not LE or MIL, and I do not rely on my carbine for HD. It is more for a breakdown in civil order, when LE may not be available (although at that point, it may get drafted into HD).

If some barrier blind ammo is indeed recommended, is Federal's T3 worth the premium price tag (I can get it today, but it's pretty much double the price of everything else)?

I've read Doc's sticky where he recommends training over worrying about the "best" ammo, and I am trying to accomplish this objective, but as long as I am going to buy some premium defenese ammo (maybe just a few hundred rounds), I may as well buy the best I can get.

Any thoughts, critiques or recommendations?

I'm personally torn between the RA556B Bonded, and the Black HIlls 62gr TSX.

They are both 5.56 pressure loads.
Both have sealed and staked primers AND sealed case necks.
Both kill things dead on the various hunting forums I've seen them discussed on.
Both are barrier blind, although the RA556B does a bit better on some barriers with regards to post-barrier expansion.

RA556B shoots about 2 MOA out of my CHF 16.1" Daniel Defense, and prints similar to my training FMJ. Enough so that no training opportunities are compromised by zeroing for the RA556B and shooting the M193 in classes, even on 150+ yard rifle plates. I have not evaluated the TSX round yet.

My objection to Gold Dot is the low velocity/.223 pressure and the unsealed case-necks.
My objection to the Federal T3 is the poor accuracy I have gotten with the load (about 2.5-3MOA), and the fact that EVERY gun I have shot it out of shoots it about 1-3 MOA to the left of ANY other ammo I have. YMMV there for sure.

I view bonded ammo as very good, even for the civilian like myself. Why? People try to seek cover when you shoot at them. This could mean a car door, or it could mean your sofa or an end-table. Also, I think bonded ammo or monolithic copper ammo is just smarter for hunting. Less meat is spoiled and you aren't worried about shredding your mouth on an errant jacket fragment or about lead or anything else like that.

[Moonshot]

After reading the above response, and rereading my OP, I realize I did not phrase my question, or my intro to it very well.

I understand the rational for having a barrier blind round - heavy OTM rounds may cause more damage than a BB round, but the OTM will not penetrate many intermediate barriers well.

Sadly, I cannot afford to simply replace all my OTM rounds with BB rounds, so it will have to be a mix of each.

I place a premium on buying ammo in person, rather than on-line, and if I do buy on-line it's only from a few select places, so that does tend to limit my options.

With this in mind, there are only a few BB loads I can actually find right now to purchase and test - Federal's Fusion, Fusion MSR and LE223T3 (all 62gr, all .223 and all available locally). The GDSP is unavailable in either the 62gr or 64gr weight.

Ammo cost does become a factor. I can buy either Fusion round for under $1 per round, while the T3 is usually well over $2 per round (although if I move quickly I can pick up several hundred rounds at just under $2 per round). The GD is the cheapest of all, but again is unavailable. Is the T3 worth twice what most everything else costs? Is it really that good? We are talking 200 rounds of T3 for $400 vs 200 rounds of Fusion or Fusion MSR for just under $200 or, when you can get it, 200 rounds of Gold Dot SP for $180.

My first AR was a used Bushmaster. It was inexpensive and high quality (or so I thought). After taking a few classes and reading all I could on several forums, I sold my Bushy and bought a BCM upper and placed it on a LMT lower. It cost about double what my used Bushy cost, but I think is a far better quality carbine. Is the LE223T3 another BCM/LMT? Is it worth twice what my other choices cost?

The money I could save by not buying the T3 could go towards twice as many rounds of a different BB round for my inventory, or a spare BCG and LPK, or 500 rounds of training ammo for my next class. I am not trying to talk myself out of the T3. On the contrary - if it's worth the investment I'll buy some, I just want to know that it is in fact worth it. If it isn't, I'll get a small supply of Fusion and wait for the Gold Dot SP.

Again, as the Doctor advised, training and practice is still the key, but if I am going to buy any BB rounds, I may as well get the best "bang for my buck".

[Unobtanium]

After reading the above response, and rereading my OP, I realize I did not phrase my question, or my intro to it very well.

I understand the rational for having a barrier blind round - heavy OTM rounds may cause more damage than a BB round, but the OTM will not penetrate many intermediate barriers well.

Sadly, I cannot afford to simply replace all my OTM rounds with BB rounds, so it will have to be a mix of each.

I place a premium on buying ammo in person, rather than on-line, and if I do buy on-line it's only from a few select places, so that does tend to limit my options.

With this in mind, there are only a few BB loads I can actually find right now to purchase and test - Federal's Fusion, Fusion MSR and LE223T3 (all 62gr, all .223 and all available locally). The GDSP is unavailable in either the 62gr or 64gr weight.

Ammo cost does become a factor. I can buy either Fusion round for under $1 per round, while the T3 is usually well over $2 per round (although if I move quickly I can pick up several hundred rounds at just under $2 per round). The GD is the cheapest of all, but again is unavailable. Is the T3 worth twice what most everything else costs? Is it really that good? We are talking 200 rounds of T3 for $400 vs 200 rounds of Fusion or Fusion MSR for just under $200 or, when you can get it, 200 rounds of Gold Dot SP for $180.

My first AR was a used Bushmaster. It was inexpensive and high quality (or so I thought). After taking a few classes and reading all I could on several forums, I sold my Bushy and bought a BCM upper and placed it on a LMT lower. It cost about double what my used Bushy cost, but I think is a far better quality carbine. Is the LE223T3 another BCM/LMT? Is it worth twice what my other choices cost?

The money I could save by not buying the T3 could go towards twice as many rounds of a different BB round for my inventory, or a spare BCG and LPK, or 500 rounds of training ammo for my next class. I am not trying to talk myself out of the T3. On the contrary - if it's worth the investment I'll buy some, I just want to know that it is in fact worth it. If it isn't, I'll get a small supply of Fusion and wait for the Gold Dot SP.

Again, as the Doctor advised, training and practice is still the key, but if I am going to buy any BB rounds, I may as well get the best "bang for my buck".

Gold Dot is a great bang for the buck BB round. It is not as good as LE223T3, but after 200 yards, I'd rather have it for sure, as it is much more accurate.

I suggest that you just get over your fears of OPSEC and buy ammo online. If you are avoiding it for financial reasons, then go by Wal-Mart and buy those pre-paid VISA cards. They have EVERYTHING a regular CC has, except the tie to your account. You buy it, you use it up. Like a gift-card to Chili's or something, yet it gives you all the numbers to make a transaction online. If you truly have need of so much OPSEC that you cannot have things shipped to your house, then I suggest utilizing your chain of command within USASOC to source the ammo for free to you.

That said, I have sent 64gr GDSP to people who have shot living things with it and liked it. It did okay for them. Most people I know who are serious about 5.56 and hunting larger things with it use the 62 and 70gr TSX rounds, though.

Me? I'm having a tough time between RA556B, and the new 62gr Black Hills TSX 5.56. The RA556B is a consistent 2MOA round, while the TSX is 2.5 or so for me.

The Gold Dot should be a 1-2 MOA round. It's downfalls are that it's a bit more delicate than the others mentioned (upside is that it expands further out, ICE's criteria for its development was effective terminal performance at 200m from a 10" barrel). Also, it's a true .223 pressure round. LE223T3 is, too, but it's considerably "hotter" than GD.

[SLG]

If you have no real use for the gun other than training (which is fine), then I would just buy a lot of training ammo and not worry about the barrier blind stuff. If you change your use (home defense, for example) then you may want to stock up on some barrier blind stuff. If you're really concerned about societal collapse, the type of ammo you put in your gun is orders of magnitude behind, say, having enough water.

[DocGKR]

SLG--well said.

Gold Dot and Fusion use the EXACT same bullet.

TBBC and the Nosler bonded bullet used in the Win RA556B load are the most robust of the bullets.

TSX are great bullets--particularly for hunting, but they are NOT as "barrier blind" as the other loads, as they often either strip off the expanded "petals" or collapse twhen going through intermediate barriers, leaving a deep penetrating, caliber size, wadcutter like core.

[TGS]

If you're really concerned about societal collapse, the type of ammo you put in your gun is orders of magnitude behind, say, having enough water.

Hygienic supplies, antibiotics, and water.



In all seriousness.....if the purpose of the rifle is for civil unrest, I wouldn't worry about barrier blind ammunition. Having a semi-auto carbine or repeating arm of some type for each able bodied person in the household, along with a way to carry at least 1 reload on person, is what I would consider to be adequete...as well as more important than 1 AR15 with premium BB ammo.

Groups of looters and whatnot will respond effectively to behavior modification training via armed homeowners with a standoff distance and trigger line....doesn't matter whether that's an AR15 with premium BB ammo, a shotgun with slugs or buck, an SKS, 30-30 lever action, or a 9mm carbine.

If you're defending yourselves against a determined attacker, the deciding factor will be whether your neighbors are armed and participating, i.e. LA Riots, Koreatown. You shooting BB ammo is so far down the list. Better to have water, food, antibiotics and hygienic supplies before even worrying about BB.

IMO.

[Unobtanium]

SLG--well said.

Gold Dot and Fusion use the EXACT same bullet.

TBBC and the Nosler bonded bullet used in the Win RA556B load are the most robust of the bullets.

TSX are great bullets--particularly for hunting, but they are NOT as "barrier blind" as the other loads, as they often either strip off the expanded "petals" or collapse twhen going through intermediate barriers, leaving a deep penetrating, caliber size, wadcutter like core.

I have found the Nosler bullet to be 1.5-2X more accurate than the TBBC.

Further, it expands down to what, 1600fps? This is good, because it sheds velocity like a brick.

I would note, though, that the TSX falls in between TBBC and RA556B for accuracy, in my testing, and the TSX according to everyone I know who has shot A LOT of game (hundreds of animals a year, feral hogs, etc.) kills stuff deader faster more efficiently than any other bullet design. Although one person has killed a deer with M855A1 and said it was the most destructive thing they have seen short of a .300WM or other larger caliber. They are not someone prone to exaggeration.

[Hunter Rose]

SLG--well said.

TSX are great bullets--particularly for hunting, but they are NOT as "barrier blind" as the other loads, as they often either strip off the expanded "petals" or collapse when going through intermediate barriers, leaving a deep penetrating, caliber size, wadcutter like core.

Do the Black Hills 5.56mm 50 gr TSX display any of these issues?

[Moonshot]

Some very good advise offered in this post. Food, water, meds, etc are a lot like ammo - it's good to have a supply handy when you need it for those times when you can't get it. How much you actually will need is the $64 question.

Additional long arms for other family members is something I had actually begun looking into some time ago - specifically a Beretta Storm in 9mm, the new Keltec S2K and a lever action in .44 mag. Even looking at a Ruger 10/22 takedown. Each of these platforms appeals to me.

I still think I need some additional higher performance ammo for my AR. All I have is a limited supply of 68gr and 75gr BH .223, and while these are plenty accurate, the range is limited (especially the 68gr) and none are BB.

Pretty much everything EXCEPT the Fusion and the Gold Dot are in the $1.50 to $2.15 per round range. That makes it tough to stock up on, and I'm still not sure if these more expensive rounds offer enough of an advantage to justify the cost.

If the Gold Dot and the Fusion use the same bullet at the same pressure/velocity, the Fusion sounds like it would make an acceptable choice over the more robust but more expensive TBBC T3.