2015 Glock 19 GEN 4 Handguns still unreliable / have design flaws

[Patrin]

If I am reading your report right, you experienced one stovepipe and lots of BTF in three pistols. Glock shooters must measure reliability in stoppages/malfunctions/breakage, or they will be very unhappy. My friend, YVK, has a 19 with over 15,000 trouble free rounds. I have watched it sprinkle rounds all over the place. My Glock pistols do not suffer stoppages, but sprinkle rounds all around. They do not eject/extract like a CZ, Sig or HK.

Correct, bud. Immediately I could see, what others had reported, that the BTF causes one to immediately develop a flinch. Some of the BTF I received had some force to the forehead, aside from the heat of the casing. No go

With your Sig background, I would think you would be very satisfied with a 320 Compact. It is accurate, points like a P series

I like the way the P320 feels, seems solid. Coming from cc'ing in very cramped conditions (airplane) and using different positions, and favoring the AIWB, if a CC gun is not a DA/SA, I want it to have a trigger safety and 5-7lb pull for a striker. The P320 is essentially a SA gun with 6-7lb trigger. If it had a trigger safety, I'd consider it. Just a hang up of mine.

[Patrin]

Not sure what your impression of the HK's was in BP, with the 155 grain 40, but I can tell you in 9mm it's a whole other animal.

Hey HCM, the HK's to me have awful DA/SA trigger pulls...long, stagey, gritty. A trigger job from Mr. Bruce Gray is an option, but too pricey for what you get...by the report of shooters I trust.

Otherwise, they are great guns, very reliable, and like the LEM overall. I shoot DA/SA better than LEM though, but I'm sure that has to do with both the quality of training I received on the DA/SA and a plethora of free ammo.

My SIG's have all had action jobs, and are smooth at 10lb DA, SA 4.

Hence why I purchased a P07 from CGW directly...I'd like to see how it comes out. I was told that a 7-8lb DA and 3-4lb SA were the likely results and I'm eager to try it.

Worst handgun I've owned by far.

Good to know, thank you.

I'm beginning to arrive at the conclusion that the only out of the box reliable handguns made nowadays are the P226 MK25 with short extractor, P239 (I don't trust the long extractor SIGs yet), older SIGs with short extractors, folded slide SIGs, anything Beretta 92FS and 9mm and most things HK.

It's a bit sad.

[GJM]

Hey HCM, the HK's to me have awful DA/SA trigger pulls...long, stagey, gritty. A trigger job from Mr. Bruce Gray is an option, but too pricey for what you get...by the report of shooters I trust.

My SIG's have all had action jobs, and are smooth at 10lb DA, SA 4.

By the standards of a Sig, Beretta or worked CZ, the HK DA/SA trigger is lousy. However, that "lousy" trigger doesn't get in the way of me shooting the gun well enough to do fine in in any realistic defensive shooting scenario. Another option is Robert Burke, the Sig Armorer.com, has started doing carry trigger jobs on DA/SA HK pistols. I sent him my P2000 earlier today, although I almost didn't, because as lousy as the HK trigger feels, I actually shoot it just fine. $245 and a very short turn around for his "carry and reduced reset" package. Of course, maybe all the dry fire with the stock USP .45 has made me more tolerant of crappy triggers. I sure do enjoy my CZ trigger now.

One more point, I agree with you on the weight thing in the heat. I spent a fair amount of time in 90-100 this past spring and I didn't like Beretta 92C/229 weight at all. A Glock 19/P2000/320 weight felt much better.

[HCM]

Re: the 320, SIG supposedly has an optional trigger with a trigger safety and a frame mounted thumb safety, in the pipeline as options for LEO guns which would make them more AIWB friendly.

[HCM]

By the standards of a Sig, Beretta or worked CZ, the HK DA/SA trigger is lousy. However, that "lousy" trigger doesn't get in the way of me shooting the gun well enough to do fine in in any realistic defensive shooting scenario. Another option is Robert Burke, the Sig Armorer.com, has started doing carry trigger jobs on DA/SA HK pistols. I sent him my P2000 earlier today, although I almost didn't, because as lousy as the HK trigger feels, I actually shoot it just fine. $245 and a very short turn around for his "carry and reduced reset" package. Of course, maybe all the dry fire with the stock USP .45 has made me more tolerant of crappy triggers. I sure do enjoy my CZ trigger now.

One more point, I agree with you on the weight thing in the heat. I spent a fair amount of time in 90-100 this past spring and I didn't like Beretta 92C/229 weight at all. A Glock 19/P2000/320 weight felt much better.

GJM, my big question re: Robert Burke's HK trigger work is does he re finish the internals after he works on them ?

[GJM]

GJM, my big question re: Robert Burke's HK trigger work is does he re finish the internals after he works on them ?

I emailed Robert.

[HCM]

The reason I ask is, it's my understanding part of the gray guns HK trigger job cost is refinishing the parts. Since the HK internals are MIM, and thus only surface hardened, it's necessary to refinish them after working / polishing them to restore the surface hardness, usually with some type of Nickle /teflon finish like the Robar or TNT finish.

[Patrin]

By the standards of a Sig, Beretta or worked CZ, the HK DA/SA trigger is lousy. However, that "lousy" trigger doesn't get in the way of me shooting the gun well enough to do fine in in any realistic defensive shooting scenario. Another option is Robert Burke, the Sig Armorer.com, has started doing carry trigger jobs on DA/SA HK pistols. I sent him my P2000 earlier today, although I almost didn't, because as lousy as the HK trigger feels, I actually shoot it just fine. $245 and a very short turn around for his "carry and reduced reset" package.

Perhaps it would be the same for me. If the P2000, at the time I was investing in SIGs, had been at the prices they are now, I would have considered them. At the time, they were expensive - for a polymer - trigger job 300$ plus (Grayguns), two rounds less, difficult to detail strip, etc....I built a case against the P2000 V3 in favor of my P229's. Detail strip is a biggy with me, I kayak and my carry guns go in the drink sometimes.

I'm trying the P07 on a whim based on Mr. Pannone's reviews. I'll run it hard and if it works out, pick up a backup. For price + work, reviews, it appears viable.

the 320, SIG supposedly has an optional trigger with a trigger safety

Good to know, and smart on SIG's part. I like striker triggers in the proper weight with a short reset. I'll watch their development.

I'd like to see a VP9 compact, 15 + 1, but that may be 50 years in the future with HK.

[SLG]

Does no one like the TLG LEM P30 anymore?

If you are uninjured, I doubt it's the 6oz that is making the difference for you, but everyone has a different tolerance. I carried a Sig aiwb for years, and the slightly shorter, more tapered slide, combined with the greater mass of the Sig behind the trigger, makes it ride a little "higher", and less stable than the Glock, ime. Almost like a P7, but not as bad.

[HopetonBrown]

I've heard that the White Sound Defense HRED coupled with the Apex FRE might be the ticket.