Help Needed to address a flinching issue

[rebelxd1224]

Curious if things got better for the poster?

I was able to get the shooter qualified. He passed with a score of 286 out of 360, 79% roughly. A significant improvement over a 214 from the previous session.

I started him out on magazines loaded with nothing but snap caps. We did about 3 or 4 magazines of that. Then I loaded up a few magazines with 10 snap caps and 2 live rounds. Over the next couple of magazines, I steadily increased the number of live rounds and decreased the number of snap caps. It helped with the manipulations to a significant degree. He passed on his next attempt.

He has a dry fire routine now that I gave him to work with. Improvement is now up to him. We'll see.

[xmanhockey7]

It's hard enough to analyze this stuff while standing there much less via the Internet. But I'm going to give it a go based off of what you said his target looked like:

He's not flinching. Flinch *usually* manifests itself as shots dropped straight down six to eight inches. It looks like that because the shoulders tense up simultaneously right before the shot causing the muzzle to dip straight down.

He's anticipating... which is different. Jerking the trigger due to anticipating is mostly a head game one plays with oneself. Try this:

Have him clear his gun for dry practice and establish a full, HARD firing grip on the gun. The goal for the dry drill is not for his front sight to stay perfectly still - the goal is to operate the trigger as quickly and aggressively as possible with minimal front sight movement.

With such an aggressive, committed trigger manipulation, the sights *cannot* remain relatively still *unless* he has a hard grip on the gun. Run several iterations of this.

Switch back to live fire and put 0.30 (three tenths of a second) on a shot timer. Direct him to align his sights with his target (A Zone at five yards is fine) then direct him to place his finger on the trigger - but don't take any slack out! - and standby.

On the beep (which sounds like one continuous beep) he is to pull the trigger... and he's to pull the trigger before the beep ends. Basically: starting pointed in, sights on target, finger on the trigger (no slack taken out) he has .3 seconds to break his shot. Only a strong grip will allow him to successfully facilitate this aggressive trigger manipulation.

Only aggressive trigger manipulation will help him beat anticipation. All anticipation is is mental anguish over breaking the shot.

A giant light bulb just went off for me and explained a lot! Great post.

[Jay Cunningham]

A giant light bulb just went off for me and explained a lot! Great post.

Cool!

[Jay Cunningham]

He has a dry fire routine now that I gave him to work with.

What is it?

[Jared]

It's hard enough to analyze this stuff while standing there much less via the Internet. But I'm going to give it a go based off of what you said his target looked like:

He's not flinching. Flinch *usually* manifests itself as shots dropped straight down six to eight inches. It looks like that because the shoulders tense up simultaneously right before the shot causing the muzzle to dip straight down.

He's anticipating... which is different. Jerking the trigger due to anticipating is mostly a head game one plays with oneself. Try this:

Have him clear his gun for dry practice and establish a full, HARD firing grip on the gun. The goal for the dry drill is not for his front sight to stay perfectly still - the goal is to operate the trigger as quickly and aggressively as possible with minimal front sight movement.

With such an aggressive, committed trigger manipulation, the sights *cannot* remain relatively still *unless* he has a hard grip on the gun. Run several iterations of this.

Switch back to live fire and put 0.30 (three tenths of a second) on a shot timer. Direct him to align his sights with his target (A Zone at five yards is fine) then direct him to place his finger on the trigger - but don't take any slack out! - and standby.

On the beep (which sounds like one continuous beep) he is to pull the trigger... and he's to pull the trigger before the beep ends. Basically: starting pointed in, sights on target, finger on the trigger (no slack taken out) he has .3 seconds to break his shot. Only a strong grip will allow him to successfully facilitate this aggressive trigger manipulation.

Only aggressive trigger manipulation will help him beat anticipation. All anticipation is is mental anguish over breaking the shot.

Mr Cunningham,

I just now stumbled on this, but I thoroughly agree with this. Further, I think it goes nicely with things I've seen Rob Leatham post about the importance of a hard grip and locked wrists when shooting.

Another interesting data point (to me) is an interview that I remember reading years ago in a magazine with (I'm almost certain) Jerry Miculek. He said that he had a bad problem with anticipation, and he conquered it by learning to pull the trigger faster than he could anticipate.

I myself have struggled with this very issue, slowly pressing the trigger and agonizing over the shot caused me to throw shots all over the place. Reading Ben Stoeger's advice to "let go" made it click for me by making me realize that if I just relaxed my mind, gripped the gun hard, and pulled the trigger straight to the rear then good things would happen.

[Jay Cunningham]

Mr Cunningham,

I just now stumbled on this, but I thoroughly agree with this. Further, I think it goes nicely with things I've seen Rob Leatham post about the importance of a hard grip and locked wrists when shooting.

Another interesting data point (to me) is an interview that I remember reading years ago in a magazine with (I'm almost certain) Jerry Miculek. He said that he had a bad problem with anticipation, and he conquered it by learning to pull the trigger faster than he could anticipate.

I myself have struggled with this very issue, slowly pressing the trigger and agonizing over the shot caused me to throw shots all over the place. Reading Ben Stoeger's advice to "let go" made it click for me by making me realize that if I just relaxed my mind, gripped the gun hard, and pulled the trigger straight to the rear then good things would happen.

Yep!

I'm still trying to deprogram myself! I updated my Dry Practice Misconceptions thread with some additional commentary germane to this discussion.

[rebelxd1224]

What is it?

I don't have this in any better format as of yet. I'm still working on that but my time is limited to course/routines development.

This schedule is meant to address any trigger control issues that Agents may be experiencing. The majority of missed shots can be attributed to poor trigger manipulation. Within the confines of that term, there is a lot of variances. You often hear “jerking the trigger”, “slapping the trigger”, “pre-ignition push”, “anticipation of recoil” and the list goes on. While it is true that some of these terms can be used interchangeably, that is not always the case. So, to simplify for the purposes of this document, we will consign ourselves to the fact that poor trigger control refers to sight/muzzle deviation from the target due to incorrect trigger manipulations. There is a lot that we could say about neural pathways and sub-conscious actions. However, again for this document, to simplify things, incorrect trigger manipulations are bad and usually done without thinking. To solve this issue, dry fire practice is the solution.

ASSESSMENT: Agents will go to a live fire range. From 3 yards, 5 yards, 7 yards, fire 5 rounds a piece at 2 inch dot diagrams provided. Record number of rounds on dot from each position. From 15 and 25 yards, agents will fire 5 rounds a piece at 3X5 card diagram provided. Record number of hits. No presentations from the holster. All shots will be fired from low ready with no time limit.

PHASE ONE, WEEK 1-4
Agent will dry fire for approximately 30 minutes a day, 3-4 days a week. Two 15 minute sessions is ideal, but can be adjusted if necessary. Agents shouldn’t focus on number of repetitions completed in given time frame, but on individual skills addressed in the Pistol 101 document that was provided. At the end of the 4th week, Agents will go back to live fire range and perform a 2nd assessment. If significant improvement is seen, Agents can progress onto Phase two.

PHASE TWO, WEEK 5-8
Agents will again perform 30 minutes of dry fire practice a day, minimum of 2-3 times a week, but more is preferred. In addition to this, Agents will end each timed session with a distraction routine. Complete 5-10 dry fire repetitions then perform 10-15 pushups. Repeat 3-5 times. Agents should be vigilant to ensure that all dry fire repetitions performed after the pushups are done correctly!! Do not let your form weaken!!! At the end of week 8, Agents will again shoot an assessment. It will then be determined if Agents should progress to Phase 3.

PHASE THREE, WEEK 9-12
Dry fire session will be divided into 3 categories per day. First category is the standard dry fire routine. The second category will be the distraction routines. The third category incorporates presentations from the holster. Agents should devote as much time possible to each category but a minimum of 10 minutes per category is recommended.

[Luke]

I'm not half as smart or a 1/4 as experienced as yall, but something I have picked up lately may be of interest? About a month ago I developed a nasty push/jerk right as the trigger went off. My dry fire looked amazing when I knew it wasn't gonna go bang. Live fire was a wreck. Been doing more dry fire and a good bit of ball and dummy and it was helping but there was no giant progress made. Sunday I decided that I was going to shoot without hearing protection for 5 rounds trying my hardest to keep the front sight still. It was loud. Very loud. I was under trees so it echoed pretty good. Put the ear muffs back on and shot some more and live fire was a lot better. Found that interesting...

[scw2]

I'm not half as smart or a 1/4 as experienced as yall, but something I have picked up lately may be of interest? About a month ago I developed a nasty push/jerk right as the trigger went off. My dry fire looked amazing when I knew it wasn't gonna go bang. Live fire was a wreck. Been doing more dry fire and a good bit of ball and dummy and it was helping but there was no giant progress made. Sunday I decided that I was going to shoot without hearing protection for 5 rounds trying my hardest to keep the front sight still. It was loud. Very loud. I was under trees so it echoed pretty good. Put the ear muffs back on and shot some more and live fire was a lot better. Found that interesting...

If the loud noise is causing that jerk I think I remember someone recommended heavier duty earmuffs doubled up with good earplugs... which could do the same thing without the potential damage to hearing.

[Luke]

I normally wear plugs with electronic ear pro (MSA sordin supremes with gel cups) but have started just using the muffs so I could still hear good. It's still pretty quiet but it's like my brain got used to the muffle noise and started telling itself it's really louder. Now my brain has a clear reference point of just how loud it really is