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Thread: U.S. Army Switching to Hollow Point Ammunition

  1. #11
    Dot Driver Kyle Reese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    No problem. That is being addressed with an AMU guided combat marksmanship program to be spread around the Army sort of like Modern Army Combatives was. Underway per a PF member in the know.
    I stand corrected, then!

    That's excellent news.

  2. #12
    Marine Corps needs to follow suit and try to give more people side arms, especially in the infantry.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    No problem. That is being addressed with an AMU guided combat marksmanship program to be spread around the Army sort of like Modern Army Combatives was. Underway per a PF member in the know.
    To the best of my knowledge, that program addresses the M16A2/A4, M4/M4A1 and associated equipment. I do not believe it addresses the M9, though much of the course content could certainly be applied to M9 training.

  4. #14
    Glock Collective Assimile Suvorov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    No problem. That is being addressed with an AMU guided combat marksmanship program to be spread around the Army sort of like Modern Army Combatives was. Underway per a PF member in the know.
    It will be really interesting to see what effect this has. It's been 10 years since I left so maybe things have greatly changed for the better, but even 10 years ago I had such assets at my disposal (we called them Small Arms Rediness Teams) and there was ZERO support from the BDE level on up to give these units the time needed to train our soldiers. As long as the troops qualified, then at the BDE level, there was NO marksmanship training problem. I realize your son's are currently in and they are with high speed units, I would suggest their reality is different. I guarantee you that there is more support at the BDE level of the 82nd Airborne for quality small arms training than there is in a POL command where are are more deficient and need it more.

    Again, I hope I'm wrong but IMHO until we change the attitudes of the Colonels on up and convince them that spending valuable training time on basic pistol marksmanship fundamentals is worth it (and not simply fixing the problem with a new piece of kit), then all the best high speed training teams in the world will never have the chance to do their jobs...

  5. #15
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredM View Post
    I stand corrected, then!

    That's excellent news.
    Well, I cocked off based on post 131 here https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....highlight=Army and some subsequent conversations but my misunderstanding has been clarified re the focus on M4 so maybe not entirely as I thought.

    But as I argued in the long MHS thread, close range self defense with a pistol is not IMO the rocket science enthusiasts sometimes make it out to be.

    I'm personally aware of an Airborne Infantry platoon that just spent two days doing very realistic force on force training with simunitions and they aren't SOCOM or anything. We'll have to see about the pistol.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  6. #16
    Any confusion surrounding the content of the AMU course is my fault.

  7. #17
    Interesting, but I'll wait to form an opinion until someone other than TTAG reports on it--they're worse than CNN about running to publish with a fraction of the actual story.

    That said, the first sentence of TTAG's post is interesting: "Sources tell TTAG that the United States Army is switching from ball to hollow-point ammunition for its next generation handgun." If the use of JHP ammo is tied to the arrival of the next-generation handgun, then a lot of the folks on active duty right now will have retired by the time the average pistol-toting soldier gets it.


    Okie John

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by JHC View Post
    Well, I cocked off based on post 131 here https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....highlight=Army and some subsequent conversations but my misunderstanding has been clarified re the focus on M4 so maybe not entirely as I thought.

    But as I argued in the long MHS thread, close range self defense with a pistol is not IMO the rocket science enthusiasts sometimes make it out to be.

    I'm personally aware of an Airborne Infantry platoon that just spent two days doing very realistic force on force training with simunitions and they aren't SOCOM or anything. We'll have to see about the pistol.
    Well this thread has me hopeful. You don't need a pistol often in the Army, but when you need it you absolutely need it and having (1) modern ammo; and (2) the possibility of decent training with it should really help soldiers in those situations.

    Of course, I won't believe it until I see it, but I certainly hope it is true.

  9. #19
    There was a post by SoldierSystems about this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier Systems
    FORT BELVOIR, Va. (July 8, 2015) – The U.S. Army moved closer to releasing its long-awaited solicitation for a new, modern handgun system when it hosted a fourth industry day for interested vendors earlier today at Picatinny Arsenal, N.J.

    The Army named the new weapon the “XM-17” Modular Handgun System. It will replace the current M9 standard Army handgun with a more state-of-the-art weapon system.

    “More than 20 companies attended the event,” said Debi Dawson, PEO Soldier spokesperson.

    Federal procurement restrictions do not allow the disclosure of the names of firms participating, she added.

    The government presented changes to its latest draft solicitation for the XM-17 that were posted to the Federal Business Opportunities website on June 8 under Solicitation Number W15QKN15R0001, according to Dawson.

    At the event today, among changes discussed was policy that now opens up the competition to rounds other than ball (full metal jacket) ammunition.

    A representative from the Army Judge Advocate General’s Office discussed the decision in detail during the event.

    Richard Jackson, Special Assistant to the U.S. Army Judge Advocate General for Law of War, told attendees that federal, state, local and military law enforcement elements routinely use expanding and fragmenting ammunition in their handguns due to the increased capability it provides against threats.

    “Expanding the XM-17 Modular Handgun competition to include special purpose ammunition will provide the Warfighter with a more accurate and lethal handgun,” he said.

    “Other types of ammunition allow the XM-17 Modular Handgun System to be optimized by vendors, providing a more capable system to Warfighters across the spectrum of shooter experience and skill level.”

    Through the upcoming competition, the Army intends to replace the M9 with a more modern handgun system.

    “Handgun technology has advanced significantly thanks to lighter-weight materials, ergonomics and accessory rails since 1986 when the M9 entered the Army’s inventory,” Dawson said.

    “The Army is seeking a handgun system that outperforms the current M9 system. It also must be modular, meaning it allows adjustments to fit all hand sizes.”

    The Army is encouraging Industry to optimize commercially available gun, ammunition and magazine components in order to provide a system for maximum performance.

    Current plans call for the Army to purchase more than 280,000 of the new handguns from a single vendor. Deliveries are scheduled to begin in 2018.

    The Army also plans to buy approximately 7,000 compact versions of the new handgun.

    Dawson said that other military services participating in the XM-17 program may order an additional 212,000 systems above the Army quantity.

    The draft solicitation spells out likely procedural and schedule details that responding vendors will have to follow to participate in the competition.
    Source: http://soldiersystems.net/2015/07/08...-industry-day/

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by breakingtime91 View Post
    Marine Corps needs to follow suit and try to give more people side arms, especially in the infantry.
    Some years back (not that many), I read that the Corps was actually reducing the number of handguns in their combat arms TO&Es. Company grade officers and staff NCOs would be issued M4s, while the grunts would continue to be issued M-16A4s.

    A friend's daughter went through the Marine Corps MP school two years ago, and I was flabbergasted to learn that she received two- TWO- whole days training on the M9, during a six week course. I had worked with her with a borrowed 92F on her break between boot camp and the MP school. She told me that familiarization saved her from boloing.

    Did I say training? Actually, it was one day of barely-supervised fam firing, and the next day were quals… which a full third of the class failed. Simply amazing… and scary.

    .

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