Cross-dominance and the RSS Basic Handgun course (split form the LAV/AIWB thread)

[LSP972]

I am convinced there is no settled science on this.

There cannot be, because we're all different. I have little doubt that most folks, given enough time and repetitions, could learn to shoot as well from their non-dominant side... as evidenced by your friend.

But given the time limitations in your basic class (even a week-long one), and the fact that those same most folks are NOT going to religiously continue to hone those off-side skills once they leave... well, looks to me like a collossal recipe for disaster.

Just sayin'...

.

[GJM]

There cannot be, because we're all different. I have little doubt that most folks, given enough time and repetitions, could learn to shoot as well from their non-dominant side... as evidenced by your friend.

But given the time limitations in your basic class (even a week-long one), and the fact that those same most folks are NOT going to religiously continue to hone those off-side skills once they leave... well, looks to me like a collossal recipe for disaster.

Just sayin'...

.

Some considerations are how strongly eye dominant you are, how strongly hand dominant you are, whether a switch will make you shoot right handed (right handed world out there), will you shoot long gun, how serious you are about shooting as a long term pursuit, how much prior experience/repetitions you have another way, and more I have forgotten.

No solution is ideal, and if you had a check list you certainly wouldn't pick cross dominant for your kid.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I think the dominance issue is one that could be handled with well designed human factors studies. There are quantifiable tests for hand and eye dominance. Shooters of various training levels could be tested on standardized trials. Might be a thing the armed forces would be set up to do. I hold this opinion based on a PhD in cognitive psychology and a post doc in sensory neurophysiology plus suffering through many gun classes .

I think expert opinions from the field can inform the set up of a real test.

[JustOneGun]

Some considerations are how strongly eye dominant you are, how strongly hand dominant you are, whether a switch will make you shoot right handed (right handed world out there), will you shoot long gun, how serious you are about shooting as a long term pursuit, how much prior experience/repetitions you have another way, and more I have forgotten.

No solution is ideal, and if you had a check list you certainly wouldn't pick cross dominant for your kid.

While we hesitate to say never, I think teaching someone to shoot cross dominate is far easier than turning a right handed person into a lefty or left to right in almost all cases. I did take a year to learn to shoot left handed. It made me a better instructor and on paper I scored the same on the qual with either hand. On a timer and in Force on Force, not so much. I wouldn't want to get into a shoot out as a lefty. Having done it I just can't fathom why someone would, on a regular basis, have people do it.

Perhaps he was just having people try it and not advocating they keep doing it?

[uechibear]

I can find no mention of his policies about cross-dominance on his website.

I would be very unhappy to show up for training and find out that I couldn't shoot as I normally do. The Basic class is not required for all. Instead, this (from his website) seems to be where he draws the line:

To qualify to take the Intermediate course a student must already possess the skill to be able to draw a center fire handgun from a concealed carry position or a duty type holster and reliably hit a man sized target at 10 yards in less than 2 seconds.

So I guess I wouldn't need to be concerned, but I wonder if he tests everyone to the above standard prior to conducting the training. Does he do an eye dominance test on everyone first? Can he tell which eye someone is putting the sights in front of by watching from the side?

His house, his rules, but I'm curious how this works in actual practice.

[Mr_White]

I can find no mention of his policies about cross-dominance on his website.

I would be very unhappy to show up for training and find out that I couldn't shoot as I normally do. The Basic class is not required for all. Instead, this (from his website) seems to be where he draws the line:



So I guess I wouldn't need to be concerned, but I wonder if he tests everyone to the above standard prior to conducting the training. Does he do an eye dominance test on everyone first? Can he tell which eye someone is putting the sights in front of by watching from the side?

His house, his rules, but I'm curious how this works in actual practice.

When I took the Intermediate/Advanced class, there was no test to see if we could meet the stated prerequisite skill level walking into the class. I think people who are too far behind would just have a very hard time keeping up.

A shooter's eye dominance can often be observed by another person from the outside. I may have to see them from the sides or a little over the top, but I can usually tell.

In actual practice, I think it's mostly a non-issue. I understand that the insistence to shoot with the same-side eye and hand to ONLY be in the basic class. There was no attempt made that I knew of in the Intermediate/Advanced class to either identify cross dominant shooters or persuade them to switch. I think the only time it's going to be a problem is if an established shooter who wants to shoot with their naturally cross dominant eye and hand shows up to the Basic class.

Sorry for the drift, but I felt like I could speak to a few of uechibear's questions.

[nycnoob]

I would be very unhappy to show up for training and find out that I couldn't shoot as I normally do.

[. . . . ]

So I guess I wouldn't need to be concerned, but I wonder if he tests everyone to the above standard prior to conducting the training. Does he do an eye dominance test on everyone first? Can he tell which eye someone is putting the sights in front of by watching from the side?

His house, his rules, but I'm curious how this works in actual practice.

I have had the basic class several times.


Bill does not force you to shoot with your non-dominant hand if you do not want to, but it is a basic class so everyone
is eager to try his recommended methods. I did shoot right handed for several years because of this (though I had other reasons for my decision)

I have seen some students leave the course very frustrated because his "basic" class is quite demanding and they felt
that the hand switch put them further behind and there was little explanation/encouragement as to why they should be making this large effort.
(There was one student I remember distinctly because he was missing an eye . . . )

As part of the safety brief the Sunday night before class begins there are a few small motor experiments that are encouraged for you to try
including an eye dominance test (look though the opening in your hand . . . .).

As with many classes, they watch your progress and make suggestions but I do not think there is any "required" technique,
but some strongly suggested ideas for you to try.

[TiroFijo]

I'm left eye dominant, right handed, and I've always shot right handed. This was never an problem for IPSC shooting, perhaps the dominance is not too strong or I've learned to circumvent the issue with small/partial/quick winks at the right time.

Of course, I can also shoot with my left hand, and in this case I use my left eye as master eye. I've played a lot of rugby and some basketball when I was younger, and like to do manual labors so I have decent left hand dexterity, but I've always preferred to use my "master" hand for shooting and feel it is far easier (for most people) to learn cross dominance than to train the non dominant hand to a high level of dexterity.

For all the people screaming that "real life" is very different from IPSC, and thus both eyes wide open 100% of the time is essential for your survival, it may well be true but I personally think this is exaggerated.

[orionz06]

I think the whole idea is exaggerated and people who don't have a clue about it are searching for the one right answer because they feel the need to have an answer.

[dgg9]

I'm left eye dominant, right handed, and I've always shot right handed.

Same here. Over the years, I'm losing near vision in the right, non-dominant, eye, so switching isn't even possible anymore. I wonder how it would have been different if I started by shooting LH.

To me, the sole advantage of shooting with non-dominant hand in order to match dominant eye would be (and is, in my case) a real improvement in mechanics/ergonomics, especially one handed shooting with the "strong off-hand." There's no question it's harder for me to get the right sight picture by dragging the gun so far over. Even moreso with problematic shoulders.

On the other hand:
1. It's totally unknown if I would develop the same dexterity under pressure/time that way.
2. RH-oriented controls are at least somewhat less natural lefty, though I think reloading and racking are less important overall than aiming and shooting. Of course this becomes a plus for a LH but right eye person.
3. Rifle-pistol transitions seem clumsy (not a real-life factor for a civilian admittedly) so maybe you have to use rifle LH too?
4. Martial arts are much more natural bladed to my strong side. In theory, you're supposed to be 100% ambidextrous with martial arts, but few people are. I see this as the biggest negative. Basically, you have pistol, rifle, combatives, and IMO all should be basically congruent, where possible.