HK USP 45 field pistol

[Doc_Glock]

Heading around grizzly bears the next few days, so I dragged an HK45C out to the range for some refam. Awesome pistol, but I shoot a dot equipped mid size like the G45/320 Compact/M&P so much better, that one would really need to believe in .45 to carry it. I plan to bring a 9mm with a dot and Lehigh Penetrator ammo along, and leave the 45C at home.

Wow. That is really an eye opener. So the HK 45 super field pistol is dead to you.

[JRB]

Heading around grizzly bears the next few days, so I dragged an HK45C out to the range for some refam. Awesome pistol, but I shoot a dot equipped mid size like the G45/320 Compact/M&P so much better, that one would really need to believe in .45 to carry it. I plan to bring a 9mm with a dot and Lehigh Penetrator ammo along, and leave the 45C at home.

I'm curious about a few details in your thought process there.
How much of that is the G45/P320, and how much of that is the red dot advantage?

If a slide milling could be done on an HK45C to suit, say, a Holosun 509, would that change your mind?

[GJM]

I'm curious about a few details in your thought process there.
How much of that is the G45/P320, and how much of that is the red dot advantage?

If a slide milling could be done on an HK45C to suit, say, a Holosun 509, would that change your mind?

I believe in bullet placement ahead of caliber, so much of it is the dot. I would love to have a USP FS 45 with an Acro and do some side by side with the competition.

[Forte Smitten Wesson]

Now I've heard everything... Carrying a 9mm into Grizzly Bear territory? You're a very brave man.

Yeah, I know that a lot of folks are saying that certain 9mm loads are adequate for Bear Defense these days, but personally I wouldn't be willing to put that to the test and would rather carry something with a lot more oomph that I could be absolutely certain would stop a bear. Stop, as in, not just kill it, but actually stop it dead in its tracks from a full charge.

Ah, but then again, if I were going into Grizzly country, then I would be slinging my Mossberg 590 Shockwave 12 Gauge loaded with Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slugs, unless of course I couldn't and needed a pistol, then I would much sooner opt for the H&K USP45 than any 9mm, regardless of what kind of Lehigh Extreme Penetrator +P+ loads can supposedly do to a Grizzly.

[JRB]

Now I've heard everything... Carrying a 9mm into Grizzly Bear territory? You're a very brave man.

Yeah, I know that a lot of folks are saying that certain 9mm loads are adequate for Bear Defense these days, but personally I wouldn't be willing to put that to the test and would rather carry something with a lot more oomph that I could be absolutely certain would stop a bear. Stop, as in, not just kill it, but actually stop it dead in its tracks from a full charge.

Ah, but then again, if I were going into Grizzly country, then I would be slinging my Mossberg 590 Shockwave 12 Gauge loaded with Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slugs, unless of course I couldn't and needed a pistol, then I would much sooner opt for the H&K USP45 than any 9mm, regardless of what kind of Lehigh Extreme Penetrator +P+ loads can supposedly do to a Grizzly.

GJM's spent a LOT of time in Alaska, often carrying a Benelli full of Brennekes, judging by the pictures he's shared. Understand that he is anything but a layman when it comes to brown bear defense, and it's his considerable experience in that arena as well as in pistol shooting with a red dot that makes his conclusion here noteworthy and remarkable.

Simple physics tells us that no handgun will physically stop a charging brown bear. Nor virtually anything short of a Gustav for that matter. It's effective CNS hits that stop creatures.
If he says a red dot on a well-sorted 9mm with well chosen loads designed for penetration can make that happen better than .45 Supers in an older HK with iron sights, I believe him.

[GJM]

In terms of pure bullet performance, a .44 magnum or larger revolver with wide meplat hard cast loads will run circles around any service pistol. As we have discussed, despite the difference in pure penetration, there are many reasons why an informed person might carry a service pistol over the more powerful revolver.

Once you get to a service pistol, I am not sure the difference between 9, 40, 45 and 10 is meaningful for bear defense, assuming you have a bullet that can penetrate the brain. It really gets down to what you have, what you can shoot reasonably well, and what you believe in. I fully believe in a Benelli or 1301 with Brenneke slugs, everything else handgun wise, it is pick your poison. If 10mm or 45 Super makes you feel better, by all means carry it. If I could easily drop an Acro on a USP FS 45, I would lean towards carrying that. No red dot is what makes it hard for me to decide.

[Forte Smitten Wesson]

Clearly GJM has much experience on the matter, and I wasn't arguing with his decision, merely stating that I wouldn't be confident enough to carry a 9mm into Grizzly Bear territory, but then again, I've never once set foot in Grizzly country, (biggest bears around here are Black Bears) and I probably never will.

I get it though, if I were lugging around a 12 Gauge all day long and after awhile had reached the conclusion that I could easily get away with carrying a 9mm either due to lack of bear sightings or simple observation that Grizzlies are far less resilient than they're commonly believed to be, then maybe I wouldn't carry a big, heavy Shotgun or even a USP45 either. But as someone who has never been face-to-face with a Grizzly before yet is well aware of what they can do, I'd feel much more comfortable carrying the absolute biggest, most powerful firearm that I possibly could, which would be either my 590 Shockwave, or failing that, my USP45 Elite.

If GJM is confident in carrying a 9mm into bear country based on years of personal experience and is certain that the 9mm load he's carrying will stop a Grizzly, then I won't argue with that, but I won't be following his example either. I just don't have the experience, the confidence, or the nerve to square off with a Grizzly, while armed only with a 9mm pistol.

[RJ]

One difference is I assume you were hunting, and I am not. Hunting game and bears is different than defending against animals. My plan is to fire one warning shot, followed by one shot anywhere into the body. At that point, if the bear is still coming, with my handguns I need to penetrate the brain to reliably stop an attack. I am loaded with 1,250 fps Penetrator ammo, and a red dot makes my job placing a bullet into the brain easier.

Astro and I will be behind you and Mrs. GJM.

Bullets do funny things. I once shot a Cape buffalo in the chest with a 500 grain solid out of a .460 G&A. It lifted the Buffalo up and pushed him backwards, but the bullet deformed and didn't penetrate his chest.

Smokes! What happened next?

[GJM]

Astro and I will be behind you and Mrs. GJM.



Smokes! What happened next?

The buffalo ran off into thick cover and a fair amount of drama ensued before the buffalo died. The cool thing is it was all on video, or what we called video thirty years ago.

[GJM]

Clearly GJM has much experience on the matter, and I wasn't arguing with his decision, merely stating that I wouldn't be confident enough to carry a 9mm into Grizzly Bear territory, but then again, I've never once set foot in Grizzly country, (biggest bears around here are Black Bears) and I probably never will.

I get it though, if I were lugging around a 12 Gauge all day long and after awhile had reached the conclusion that I could easily get away with carrying a 9mm either due to lack of bear sightings or simple observation that Grizzlies are far less resilient than they're commonly believed to be, then maybe I wouldn't carry a big, heavy Shotgun or even a USP45 either. But as someone who has never been face-to-face with a Grizzly before yet is well aware of what they can do, I'd feel much more comfortable carrying the absolute biggest, most powerful firearm that I possibly could, which would be either my 590 Shockwave, or failing that, my USP45 Elite.

If GJM is confident in carrying a 9mm into bear country based on years of personal experience and is certain that the 9mm load he's carrying will stop a Grizzly, then I won't argue with that, but I won't be following his example either. I just don't have the experience, the confidence, or the nerve to square off with a Grizzly, while armed only with a 9mm pistol.

I think this post crossed with my reply above, but we both seem to have an appreciation for the power of large bears.