HK USP 45 field pistol

[Lost River]

Now I've heard everything... Carrying a 9mm into Grizzly Bear territory? You're a very brave man.

Yeah, I know that a lot of folks are saying that certain 9mm loads are adequate for Bear Defense these days, but personally I wouldn't be willing to put that to the test and would rather carry something with a lot more oomph that I could be absolutely certain would stop a bear. Stop, as in, not just kill it, but actually stop it dead in its tracks from a full charge.

Ah, but then again, if I were going into Grizzly country, then I would be slinging my Mossberg 590 Shockwave 12 Gauge loaded with Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slugs, unless of course I couldn't and needed a pistol, then I would much sooner opt for the H&K USP45 than any 9mm, regardless of what kind of Lehigh Extreme Penetrator +P+ loads can supposedly do to a Grizzly.

I spend a fair amount of time recreationally in bear/wolf/lion country.

In running around Livingston, Big Timber, Ennis, Helena, Billings and others just off the top of my head, (I will be around Wolf Creek tomorrow) just this spring/early summer, I have never seen a hiker/backpacker packing a pistol gripped shotgun. That's just on the MT side. Same goes for ID.



Since I don't feel like taking a bunch of different guns, I opted to bring two. A 4" Model 29 with 305 grain hardcast pushed by H110, and the S&W 4563 PC .45ACP. It will serve both as a lightweight hiking gun and CCW piece.

[Forte Smitten Wesson]

Fortunately, my decisions on what to carry aren't based strictly upon that which others choose to carry, and being one who unfortunately cannot go out and purchase whatever on a whim, I most often have to make due with what I have, and since the 590 Shockwave is the most powerful firearm that I own which I can conceivably carry and make ready quickly, it would be my first choice of carry in Grizzly Bear territory.

That being said, I find it somewhat strange that more folks don't carry firearms like the Mossberg 590 Shockwave or Remington Tac-14 in the wilderness when 12 Gauge Shotguns are so versatile and can be loaded to deal with just about anything one might encounter in the wild, and the more compact size of the firearm would seem to lend itself better towards carry, not to mention make ready and fire more quickly in the event of an attack.
But then again, as previously stated, I have never been in Grizzly country, and the biggest bears around here are the smaller, less aggressive, and more easily stopped Black Bear, so I've never felt the need to carry my Shockwave anywhere, it was purchased for Home Defense as well as the fact that I just plain wanted one.

[GJM]

I spend a fair amount of time recreationally in bear/wolf/lion country.

In running around Livingston, Big Timber, Ennis, Helena, Billings and others just off the top of my head, (I will be around Wolf Creek tomorrow) just this spring/early summer, I have never seen a hiker/backpacker packing a pistol gripped shotgun. That's just on the MT side. Same goes for ID.



Since I don't feel like taking a bunch of different guns, I opted to bring two. A 4" Model 29 with 305 grain hardcast pushed by H110, and the S&W 4563 PC .45ACP. It will serve both as a lightweight hiking gun and CCW piece.

Fortunately, my decisions on what to carry aren't based strictly upon that which others choose to carry, and being one who unfortunately cannot go out and purchase whatever on a whim, I most often have to make due with what I have, and since the 590 Shockwave is the most powerful firearm that I own which I can conceivably carry and make ready quickly, it would be my first choice of carry in Grizzly Bear territory.

That being said, I find it somewhat strange that more folks don't carry firearms like the Mossberg 590 Shockwave or Remington Tac-14 in the wilderness when 12 Gauge Shotguns are so versatile and can be loaded to deal with just about anything one might encounter in the wild, and the more compact size of the firearm would seem to lend itself better towards carry, not to mention make ready and fire more quickly in the event of an attack.
But then again, as previously stated, I have never been in Grizzly country, and the biggest bears around here are the smaller, less aggressive, and more easily stopped Black Bear, so I've never felt the need to carry my Shockwave anywhere, it was purchased for Home Defense as well as the fact that I just plain wanted one.

In Alaska, the norm is for someone out and about in bear country to have a shotgun and slugs. Almost odd to see no long gun. In the lower 48, I don’t recall ever seeing a person hiking or recreating with a defensive shotgun in their hands.

[BillSWPA]

Fortunately, my decisions on what to carry aren't based strictly upon that which others choose to carry, and being one who unfortunately cannot go out and purchase whatever on a whim, I most often have to make due with what I have, and since the 590 Shockwave is the most powerful firearm that I own which I can conceivably carry and make ready quickly, it would be my first choice of carry in Grizzly Bear territory.

That being said, I find it somewhat strange that more folks don't carry firearms like the Mossberg 590 Shockwave or Remington Tac-14 in the wilderness when 12 Gauge Shotguns are so versatile and can be loaded to deal with just about anything one might encounter in the wild, and the more compact size of the firearm would seem to lend itself better towards carry, not to mention make ready and fire more quickly in the event of an attack.
But then again, as previously stated, I have never been in Grizzly country, and the biggest bears around here are the smaller, less aggressive, and more easily stopped Black Bear, so I've never felt the need to carry my Shockwave anywhere, it was purchased for Home Defense as well as the fact that I just plain wanted one.

How accurately can you shoot the shockwave as compared to a conventional handgun or shotgun?


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[Lost River]

In Alaska, the norm is for someone out and about in bear country to have a shotgun and slugs. Almost odd to see no long gun. In the lower 48, I don’t recall ever seeing a person hiking or recreating with a defensive shotgun in their hands.

As you know in and around places like Bozo and Missoula, it is an entirely different breed of people. I Wholeheartedly endorse shotguns. Its the pistol grip only, short barrel shotguns that I don't care for. Trying to shoot slugs through one quickly at a fast moving target when you yourself are likely to be on uneven ground is not something I would want to rely on. I would much rather have a stock on my gun, even a youth stock.

I have seen a few people at ranges with the shockwave style guns, and their skill at arms with such guns is dismal, and that is while shooting at a stationary piece of cardboard..

[Lost River]

Fortunately, my decisions on what to carry aren't based strictly upon that which others choose to carry, and being one who unfortunately cannot go out and purchase whatever on a whim, I most often have to make due with what I have, and since the 590 Shockwave is the most powerful firearm that I own which I can conceivably carry and make ready quickly, it would be my first choice of carry in Grizzly Bear territory.

That being said, I find it somewhat strange that more folks don't carry firearms like the Mossberg 590 Shockwave or Remington Tac-14 in the wilderness when 12 Gauge Shotguns are so versatile and can be loaded to deal with just about anything one might encounter in the wild, and the more compact size of the firearm would seem to lend itself better towards carry, not to mention make ready and fire more quickly in the event of an attack.
But then again, as previously stated, I have never been in Grizzly country, and the biggest bears around here are the smaller, less aggressive, and more easily stopped Black Bear, so I've never felt the need to carry my Shockwave anywhere, it was purchased for Home Defense as well as the fact that I just plain wanted one.

People generally don't carry long guns in the lower 48 (outside of hunting season) simply for the fact that it is not practical. Most of the time you are hiking and backpacking. There are not grizzly bears around every corner. There however can be lots of elevation gains, lots of miles to cover and weight adds up. If I am going to be going on a long hike, or a hike up a steep grade, I ditch stuff that weighs a lot on my pack that is not important. There is a saying, "ounces equal pounds, pounds equal pain".

If I was going into an area that had a known problem, that would be one thing. I would likely take extra precaution. But for general purpose use in Grizzly country, I find a good handgun and a slower friend sufficient.

[OlongJohnson]

But for general purpose use in Grizzly country, I find a good handgun and a slower friend sufficient.

Which I guess means you'll be hiking in a group of at least three.

[Forte Smitten Wesson]

How accurately can you shoot the shockwave as compared to a conventional handgun or shotgun?

Obviously not quite as well, but suffice to say, good enough that I'd be willing to trust my life to it.

As you know in and around places like Bozo and Missoula, it is an entirely different breed of people. I Wholeheartedly endorse shotguns. Its the pistol grip only, short barrel shotguns that I don't care for. Trying to shoot slugs through one quickly at a fast moving target when you yourself are likely to be on uneven ground is not something I would want to rely on. I would much rather have a stock on my gun, even a youth stock.

I have seen a few people at ranges with the shockwave style guns, and their skill at arms with such guns is dismal, and that is while shooting at a stationary piece of cardboard..

Most folks shoot the Shockwave from the hip, which obviously isn't beneficial towards accuracy, ergo their accuracy with it is unimpressive. However, I doubt that most folks who buy the Shockwave do so with any intention of using it in a defensive role, but rather for recreation or the obvious cool factor, most likely with preconceptions that decent accuracy was impossible without a stock, so they never even bothered seeking methods of how to aim/shoot it accurately.

Still, I'm surprised that they haven't found a niche as wilderness defense firearms, particularly among former military/law enforcement personnel who were familiar with the use/operation of similar short-barreled shotguns in similar configurations. Granted that military/police most often trained to use them in close quarters where full-length shotguns weren't good for maneuverability and that they were most likely primarily used for breaching, but even so, I figured that they might recognize them for the potential in the field. Apparently not though.

[OlongJohnson]

Once you get to a service pistol, I am not sure the difference between 9, 40, 45 and 10 is meaningful for bear defense, assuming you have a bullet that can penetrate the brain. It really gets down to what you have, what you can shoot reasonably well, and what you believe in. I fully believe in a Benelli or 1301 with Brenneke slugs, everything else handgun wise, it is pick your poison. If 10mm or 45 Super makes you feel better, by all means carry it. If I could easily drop an Acro on a USP FS 45, I would lean towards carrying that. No red dot is what makes it hard for me to decide.

I wonder about the penetration. In a test skull, well lined up, it appears the Lehigh bullets will get through. But if the shot is less well-centered and the bullet strikes away from center and hits bone at more of an oblique angle, it seems to me that a bullet with twice the mass and similar velocity would be less likely to be deflected by the bone. Heavier tends to be better at continuing in the direction it's going and smashing things that are in the way.

I obviously have zero experience to try to judge how that consideration weighs out against the likelihood of improved marksmanship with a 9mm.

I could probably dig it out of another thread, but what dot are you using for outdoors? I seem to remember you posting a few years back where you tried an open-emitter dot outdoors and either condensation or a water droplet dispersed the light at the emitter so there was no dot on the lens.

[GJM]

I wonder about the penetration. In a test skull, well lined up, it appears the Lehigh bullets will get through. But if the shot is less well-centered and the bullet strikes away from center and hits bone at more of an oblique angle, it seems to me that a bullet with twice the mass and similar velocity would be less likely to be deflected by the bone. Heavier tends to be better at continuing in the direction it's going and smashing things that are in the way.

I obviously have zero experience to try to judge how that consideration weighs out against the likelihood of improved marksmanship with a 9mm.

I could probably dig it out of another thread, but what dot are you using for outdoors? I seem to remember you posting a few years back where you tried an open-emitter dot outdoors and either condensation or a water droplet dispersed the light at the emitter so there was no dot on the lens.

Acro or 509T for field use.

Fortunately, most bear attacks are stopped without having to penetrate the brain, or the stats would look much different.