Instructors: #2 (Retention shooting) position question....Two different draw strokes?

[NickDrak]

Im curious if those of you who are proponents of the #2 (Contact/Retention shooting position), teach two different draw-strokes?

For example, when teaching the draw stroke in the context of getting the pistol up to full extension in the fastest, most efficient manner, I prefer to teach a 3-point draw:

1. Establish a full firing grip on the pistol in the holster while defeating any retention features on your holster and simultaneously bringing your support hand up high onto your chest.

2. Bring the pistol up/out of the holster and bring it up level to the support hand high on the chest and directly in-line with your dominate eye and simultaneously bringing your support hand together with your strong/gun hand and completing your two handed grip on the pistol, in one smooth motion.

3. Press the pistol straight out on-target while simultaneously obtaining the necessary sight picture/alignment required to make the shot.


When introducing the Contact/Retention shooting position AKA "#2" into the mix in the context of contact distance shooting there are two distinct motions that need to be added in:

Bringing your support arm up high into a "Guard" or parrying position, and establishing the #2 position with the gun hand with a flagged thumb.

I guess Im really just looking for the best way to teach a smooth/efficient draw stroke without getting students hung-up on the #2 position in a situation when they wouldn't be using the #2 position in the first place (e.g.: a 10 yard shot requiring getting the pistol up to your eye level asap).

I used to teach a 4 point draw stroke with everything built-in (including the #2/retention position), but it always seemed like shooters would get stuck looking like robots when going from the #2 to #3 and then #4.

I'm probably overthinking this, but just curious what others are doing.

A proper "#2" demo'd by SouthNarc/Craig Douglas:

[Jay Cunningham]

I just tell them to flow through it... use it if you need it, but if you don't, flow through it.

[JTSpidey]

I teach four position draw stroke, the #2 is taking the gun out of the holster and canting it toward the target, safety off if you have one. This does three things; First, it breaks up that long sentence you had for your #2, Second, it gives specific locations to take safety off (if gun has one), and Third, it gives you a point to stop at if you are now teaching a bent elbow retention position.

#3 position is then the "Meet and Greet" when the pistol is in the high ready meeting the support hand, slide horizontal to the ground pointing at the target, THEN you can place your finger on the trigger and proceed to #4, presenting the gun toward the target, taking the slack out of single action and striker fire guns, and prepping the trigger on Double action guns, as you bring the sights in line with your dominant eye.

[NickDrak]

What I've been teaching to newer shooters (Including fellow cops with less than ideal skill levels) is pretty much identical to what Spencer Keepers shows in this video starting at the 1:20 mark: https://www.facebook.com/36359682713...2233970601504/

I guess what I need to ask is if there is training value in teaching the #2 retention shooting position as a completely separate skill from the basic draw-stroke? Especially to lower skill level shooters.

[SouthNarc]

I think for what you're trying to do that would be fine.

[Surf]

Nick, as a default I am not a fan of teaching new shooters to draw straight from #1 into a elevated muzzle #2 position as you describe and as the video shows as a default. When teaching "cops with less than ideal skill levels" what do you find them doing when in a crowd or a dynamic 540* type environment and they need to draw their weapon into a ready, transit or domination position and not just into a shoot presentation? Do you find them naturally drawing to your elevated #2 position out of reflex or do they have the ability to draw into a non-muzzle up position? Kind of like what you are saying about the possible difficulty of drawing to a retention position when they are taught to go muzzle up as a default #2.

I would imagine if they cannot draw into a retention shooting position naturally then they also would have a hard time drawing to a ready, transit, or position of domination effectively without actively sweeping anyone around or particularly in front of them. Also as a default muzzle up draw there are other inherent issues with weapon retention in certain situations if they go right into a muzzle up #2 as you and the video describe. I know you have concerns about this as that is why you are asking. Maybe Craig can comment further on on my thoughts or correct as necessary.

I agree that a 4 count draw is a bit robotic like, especially for a person with less rhythm, coordination or perhaps athleticism. However a 4 count or any variation where the muzzle stops in or near a "proper #2" makes for a distinctive reference point that all other positions can work from. It is a familiar step or body position that we ingrain to the point where even a newer shooter can default to even under stress. If we still leave in the "proper #2" a shooter can still progress into a variation of any other ready, transit, positions of domination or actual shoot presentations from retention, to "L", to muzzle up "press out", or 45* straight to the target. Now if I was only going to shoot targets on a flat range that are guaranteed shoots, then I might go directly into a particular presentation to suit the need, maybe even muzzle up, but there still is a hint of the "proper #2" that still exists in that presentation.

I tend to teach the 4 count draw as a hybrid. It would go as.... One, two, three-and-four. Whereas three and four has no real hard pause between the #3 and #4 and the old traditional "punch out" to #4 is eliminated and a smooth transition into a controlled press towards the target in which speed increases as skill increases. Having a "proper #2" gives options. Go into ready or retention, a transit or POD position, quick level of muzzle to shoot, a muzzle up to extension, etc... I have all of these variations in my presentations, but the commonality is the #1 and #2 and all other variations evolve from there.

[Erik]

Craig, Surf, et al., do you treat/teach draws from appendix and behind the hip the same way; i.e., always default to number 2 as the first "stop" in the draw stroke?

[SouthNarc]

#2 as I teach it denotes nothing more than the intersection of the vertical and horizontal lines of presentation. The nexus of the a right angle. 2 for a strong side hip presentation is the traditional thumb/pectoral index or retention position. 2 for an appendix carrier is high center chest. The thumb pectoral index or "traditional #2" does not exist within a standard appendix presentation.

[Erik]

Thanks. You answered the question the way I should have asked it.

[Surf]

Erik, as mentioned by SN, appendix and hip draw have a bit different presentations due to necessity of the draw forced by the position of carry. Nick was speaking more in regards to newer police officers but referenced a video with appendix. I think Nick was saying that even with the hip draw as he was talking newer police officers, that he still teaches the #2 to be a snap to a muzzle up sights under dominant eye, which is not my preference as police officers often find themselves a public setting or in a close retentive situation where they may need to draw the weapon. In either case, I would not as a default snap to muzzle up, sights in line under the dominant eye no matter what mode of carry I was using.