LAV bans AIWB for his courses

[s0nspark]

When you sit, drive, fight, squat, lean, etc, the muzzle will point at you in some or all of those positions, depending on your personal factors.

I have to admit to not having been overly bothered by the thought of flagging myself with the holstered gun... but I see now this should be more of a concern.

Having to draw while the holster is so positioned increases the opportunity for Very Bad Things to happen and certainly more so if one is (inadvisedly) trying to reholster!

[Mr_White]

Wedges or not, I've not yet seen an aiwb user not flag himself with the gun in the holster. It has nothing to do with where the muzzle is pointed, or how far away from your body it is when you are standing on a range. When you sit, drive, fight, squat, lean, etc, the muzzle will point at you in some or all of those positions, depending on your personal factors.

That's true. Some of the wide variety of positions a person might assume do get part of the body in line with the muzzle of a holstered gun. The big wedge doesn't absolutely eliminate that, but it really does a lot to help.

I think a distinct but sometimes unspoken part of our 'modern defensive handgun doctrine', as far as I can call it that, is that when a modern pistol that is mechanically safe and can normally only be fired by pulling the trigger is contained within a space that prevents the trigger from being accessed (like a modern holster), muzzling is not normally considered a violation of the four safety principles.

Seated positions combined with some AIWB carry are good examples, as is a gun holstered on the strong side when the wearer sits with the legs in certain positions, or kneels down. Or when there is a line of students shooting rifles prone, while wearing loaded and holstered handguns with instructors walking around behind them.

Real world considerations can certainly make it more of a problem, like when you are forced under the circumstances to draw or holster in a suboptimal position as opposed to simply having the gun remain contained within the holster in the same suboptimal position. But then it becomes a kind of lesser of two evils issue.

I've been focusing more on the use of AIWB holsters in class since that seemed specific to the "LAV bans AIWB in open enrollment" theme of the thread - not that there is anything wrong with expanding the discussion - that's just why I've been focused on class use.

Positions that bring the legs together or the body into a crunch-type position are worse with AIWB. Positions that get the legs out wider are worse with strong side. Seated and supine draws are problematic with both carry positions, and legs have to be moved to stay clear of the muzzle, and they have to be moved in different ways depending on whether the gun is in the front or on the side.

Again focused on class use for the moment, I think there are a great many more draws performed with the legs out wide during a lateral step or other movement on the draw, than there are draws performed from seated positions or with the legs otherwise forced together.

[GJM]

Gabe, I think it is important to differentiate between different types of AIWB and OWB holsters, to make sure we have an apples to apples comparison going on.

You are referring to your version of AIWB, which is a great holster, enormous wedge and your technique. I would bet that is not "the norm." At the same time, OWB means everything from a Raven style, worn well behind 3 o'clock, to a Blade Tech style holster worn in front of the hip on a BOSS platform. With the BT on a BOSS, I don't cover myself drawing from sitting or while moving.

[JHC]

With my VG2 or JM I'm going to muzzle me-self some if I draw from behind the wheel. And in those quarters it's likely I might from IWB too. There's no guarantee the threat is at 12:00, it may be to my hard left at 9:00. I don't suppose I'll use a 12:00 index then straight up to Sabrina then down again at 9:00 if there is an actual reason to be drawing in the first place.

Hackathorn pounded this point over and over in class. In the real world, during emergencies, people are going to get muzzled. Finger finger finger.

[Mr_White]

Gabe, I think it is important to differentiate between different types of AIWB and OWB holsters, to make sure we have an apples to apples comparison going on.

You are referring to your version of AIWB, which is a great holster, enormous wedge and your technique. I would bet that is not "the norm." At the same time, OWB means everything from a Raven style, worn well behind 3 o'clock, to a Blade Tech style holster worn in front of the hip on a BOSS platform. With the BT on a BOSS, I don't cover myself drawing from sitting or while moving.

Sure, but that's why I think it's hard to make a valid generalization about the overall safety of an entire category of holster. Have to look at specifics to say something really accurate.

[KevinB]

With my VG2 or JM I'm going to muzzle me-self some if I draw from behind the wheel. And in those quarters it's likely I might from IWB too. There's no guarantee the threat is at 12:00, it may be to my hard left at 9:00. I don't suppose I'll use a 12:00 index then straight up to Sabrina then down again at 9:00 if there is an actual reason to be drawing in the first place.

Hackathorn pounded this point over and over in class. In the real world, during emergencies, people are going to get muzzled. Finger finger finger.

110% agree with Ken there -- BUT the biggest issue I do see, is when folks who are not out "in the real world" slough it off as an excuse to muzzle folks in a controlled environment. They lack the understanding and experience to put Hackathorn's comments in proper context.
AND when they are sloppy or not as safe as they can be in a controlled environment - just think what happens when the poo hits the fan.

[GJM]

Sure, but that's why I think it's hard to make a valid generalization about the overall safety of an entire category of holster. Have to look at specifics to say something really accurate.

Yes, I agree that something that has come out of this discussion is that we can not generalize safety based simply on holster name.

However, something that has also come out of this discussion, at least for me, is that we can generalize about position as it relates to safety. And, that is, the further forward the holster is, and the more wedged away from your body, the better. Gabe, the way you wear your Keeper, with that enormous wedge, your have essentially turned your holster into a front mounted OWB, but with the holster body worn inside your pants. Your arrangement is conceptually similar to the way I wear my OWB holster, on a BOSS hangar, mounted in front of my hip, except my holster is worn outside my pants, wedged off my body.

Whether you run exclusively AIWB, exclusively OWB, or some mix, I think each person should critically examine their holster set-up(s), and figure out where they have exposure to muzzle themselves. With my Blade Tech/BOSS holster, mounted in front of my hip, it is nearly impossible to muzzle myself, regardless of how I stand or sit. That holster arrangement is not practical for carry, and for that I go to a wedged AIWB, that is pretty good standing, but not good sitting. Someone asked my by PM about my practice of primarily live firing OWB, despite having so much experience with the Gadget. My personal assessment is that the way I do OWB, wedged and in front of my hip, I have more clearance than even wedged AIWB, because of the amount of wedge with the BOSS and the location around 2 o'clock, that avoids my legs more than 12:30 or so with AIWB.

Final thought -- my conclusions are highly specific to my holster, my holster position, and my body. Each person should do this analysis for their holster, position and body type.

[JHC]

110% agree with Ken there -- BUT the biggest issue I do see, is when folks who are not out "in the real world" slough it off as an excuse to muzzle folks in a controlled environment. They lack the understanding and experience to put Hackathorn's comments in proper context.
AND when they are sloppy or not as safe as they can be in a controlled environment - just think what happens when the poo hits the fan.

God no! Roger fuckin that. I hope I was clear. Thx

[Clobbersaurus]

This thread is excellent.

This thread is really relevant to me. I've been playing with an AIWB holster almost exclusively for a couple months now. Because of my body type I really had to tweak it to make it just right. It literally took me a couple weeks of daily dry fire and tweaking to make it work for me. That included using a huge foam wedge, adding some extra length to the holster and playing with ride height. Because of my gut I need to do some very specific compression with my support hand when clearing my garment to ensure I don't flag myself when I re-holster. After practising this virtually daily for a few weeks, I felt I was sufficiently safe to do some live fire on the range.

Because of my body type it's now easier to flag myself with my OWB holster than with my AIWB holster, even with moving my legs and torso to re-holster. This is part of the reason I went to a TDA, as I religiously thumb check the hammer, even before I went to AIWB.

[KevinB]

God no! Roger fuckin that. I hope I was clear. Thx

You where to me -- I just wanted others reading to know it too.