LAV bans AIWB for his courses

[Marty Hayes]

Marty,
Your silence is deafening. You hold yourself out as “Marty Hayes J.D.” on your website (http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/july...idents-message) and reference is made in many firearms oriented articles in the same manner. i.e. (http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/03/ca...eous-shooting/. I am simply asking where you went to school and are you licensed to practice law in any state.

In reviewing your website (Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network, Inc.) and many of firearms oriented articles in which you are mentioned “Marty Hayes J.D.”,I could find no mention of where you went to law school , whether you had passed a bar and do you maintain an active bar license in any jurisdiction.

I am asking the other questions (again) because you explicitly introduced the “legal consequences” of an instructor allowing AIWB in their classes and defined the tort of negligence using a 6 part test though I would note your home state of Washington uses a four part test and has done so since at least 1969. See e.g. N.L. v. Bethel School Dist., 348 P.3d 1237 (WA . App. Div 2., Apr. 28, 2015), Christen v. Lee, 780 P.2d 1307 (Wash. 1989) and Rikstad v. Holmberg 456 P2d 355 (Wash. 1969).

I am asking the questions (again) regarding your trial and appellate experience because you endeavor to outline how the litigation process works regarding experts in Posts 312, 318, 330 etc. Therefore, your actual, practical experience in the identification, retention, preparation and examination of an expert witness on the witness stand in front of a jury you picked ( as opposed to merely being retained as an expert) is particularly relevant. So would your experience regarding the protection of any favorable verdict or appeal (successful or otherwise) of an adverse verdict.

I will respond shortly, now that I know who you are and what you do.

[uechibear]

Cross-dominance and RSS Basic Handgun course discussion split to another thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16546

Thanks, Tom! I figured that was coming.

[KevinB]

Marty - the point being is your purporting to be a SME on this aspect, and folks are just asking as to what makes you credible.

Let it put it to you this way - the jury does not need to justify themselves, the experts and witnesses get examined...

You jumped out and skylined yourself- and your being asked honest questions.

[Marty Hayes]

Marty - the point being is your purporting to be a SME on this aspect, and folks are just asking as to what makes you credible.
.

Kevin, where did I purport to be a SME?

[vcdgrips]

Marty,

Before you edited your response-you asked the following questions in, and I quote - "you show me yours, I will show you mine..." request


Name: David Barnes
Locale: KCMO Metro area
Occupation: Federal Prosecutor 97 to date, Licensed Attorney (MO) Took Bar Exam-July 92/Notified Passed-Oct 92/First Attempt.
Yrs Shooting: 24. I have trained at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Rangemaster and with Tom Givens, TLG, Randy Cain, Pat Rogers, FBI, DEA, ATF, USMS, KCPD etc.
Education: BA with Dept Honors (Pol. Sci, minor-Spanish) 1987, University of MO-KC, JD, Univ. of MO-KC 92
Teaching: 10+years, NRA certified-pistol, Tom Givens Instructor Course OKC-2010 (3rd of 30+), My teaching experience/credentials are rather limited.
I am much more of a student than an instructor.


Now I will answer my questions to you for full disclosure( My answers in parens.)

Could you please provide the name of the school and year in which you graduated from law school? (UNIV OF MO-KC 1992)
Could you please provide the state(s) in which you are licensed to practice law? (MO-1992)
Could you please tell the forum how many jury trials you have under your belt in which you selected the jury, examined witnesses etc.? (15 +)
Could you tell the forum how many bench trials you have under your belt? (150+)
Could you tell the forum how many times you have authored briefs to be considered by a court of appeals? (20+)
Could you tell the forum how times you have argued in front of a court of appeals? (15+)

I also prosecuted juvenile offenders and practiced civil oriented law for a 80+ person law firm between 92 and 97.

[Marty Hayes]

Marty,

Before you edited your response-you asked the following questions in, and I quote - "you show me yours, I will show you mine..." request


Name: David Barnes
Locale: KCMO Metro area
Occupation: Federal Prosecutor 97 to date, Licensed Attorney (MO) Took Bar Exam-July 92/Notified Passed-Oct 92/First Attempt.
Yrs Shooting: 24. I have trained at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Rangemaster and with Tom Givens, TLG, Randy Cain, Pat Rogers, FBI, DEA, ATF, USMS, KCPD etc.
Education: BA with Dept Honors (Pol. Sci, minor-Spanish) 1987, University of MO-KC, JD, Univ. of MO-KC 92
Teaching: 10+years, NRA certified-pistol, Tom Givens Instructor Course OKC-2010 (3rd of 30+), My teaching experience/credentials are rather limited.
I am much more of a student than an instructor.


Now I will answer my questions to you for full disclosure( My answers in parens.)

Could you please provide the name of the school and year in which you graduated from law school? (UNIV OF MO-KC 1992)
Could you please provide the state(s) in which you are licensed to practice law? (MO-1992)
Could you please tell the forum how many jury trials you have under your belt in which you selected the jury, examined witnesses etc.? (15 +)
Could you tell the forum how many bench trials you have under your belt? (150+)
Could you tell the forum how many times you have authored briefs to be considered by a court of appeals? (20+)
Could you tell the forum how times you have argued in front of a court of appeals? (15+)

I also prosecuted juvenile offenders and practiced civil oriented law for a 80+ person law firm between 92 and 97.

Well, as you know, I answered you privately, as I didn't figure the public exposure would be something you want out in the Internet. Guess I was wrong. So, with your vast wealth of experience and education, can you point out to me where I am wrong in what I have posted so far? I am always willing to learn more about this subject matter.

[Marty Hayes]

Here are a couple links to educational material regarding the Tort of Negligence.

http://law.hofstra.edu/pdf/Academics...v35n04_i01.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligence

It is interesting, that these articles list 5 elements, where as the Textbook used in my law school class broke out "Standard of Care" into a separate element. With this in mind, I would welcome the comparison to my abbreviated listing of the elements of the Tort of Negligence and to any other material.

[vcdgrips]

It's ok. We all get it.
Be safe and well.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Liability in any situation is a highly fact dependent determination.

I would look more to the following factors to focus on for an opinion letter to a client, or in the preparation of a case (plaintiff, civil defendant or criminal defendant):

1. Experience of the instructor running the class.
2. Student to instructor ratio.
3. Complexity of the material taught vs the experience of the students.
4. Medical plan in place.
5. The quality of the liability waiver.
6. The circumstances under which the waiver was executed.

That’s by no means an exhaustive list of things to look at, but those are my first thoughts on the subject.

Addressing my #5 & #6 for a moment, I’ve noticed that the firearms training industry has really poor practices when it comes to liability waivers.

Some of those waivers are written by...I don't know...seriously, do instructors get some of these waivers off the internet on "Idon'tneedalawyerbecauseIstayedatanamebrandhotel. com"?

Don't tell me. I don't want to know.

Also, pretty much every liability waiver I’ve ever signed in a class has been presented on the first day at sign in.

Contracts, even good ones, signed under duress are of questionable validity.

Now, what constitutes duress varies, but were a case to survive to presentation to a jury, I’m going to bet that a contract first show to a guy who has planned on the class for six months, made plans around it, taken the Friday before the weekend off to drive 400 miles, paid a non-refundable $500 for a class and is told when he arrives, “Sign it or get off my firing line…” is going to be looked at in a suspect manner.

If I was someone who was addressing liability for an instructor, I’d be much more worried about that than the holster methodology an instructor permitted in his class.

A far better practice would be to have the waiver written by a professional describing in detail the risks involved in the class, the activities to be performed, making it clear that the student would receive a refund if they didn't want to sign and insuring that the waivers were notarized & executed, and returned to the instructor by a set time prior to the class beginning.

But, you know...that's just my thoughts on how I'd avoid being sued in the firearms training industry.

It's not like I'm a vulture searching for prey on a daily basis or anything...

Nope. Don't know nothing about sniffing out weaknesses in other people's behavior and never look to how I can chisel money out of an insurance company...

Wouldn't do that...

So. A-IWB. Yep. Focus on that in regards to liability.

Please.

[Marty Hayes]

It's ok. We all get it.
Be safe and well.

Maybe some of us are just slow, but get what? Get that you will not answer my questions regarding whether or not the actual information I posted was legitimate, but instead simply want to attempt to minimize that information because I do not practice law? I never professed to be anything here other than a guy with some questions for the crowd to contemplate, and to explain some of the basics of Tort law, which I learned in my first year in law school.

Again, the question is for you, Mr. Prosecutor, is what I said correct, incorrect or what? If you don't want to play anymore, that is fine. I am still here though.