LAV bans AIWB for his courses

[KevinB]

I ban the practice in my training courses, the same as LAV and other. I have studied the issue, and do not believe the benefits outweigh the risk of serious injury, hence my decision.

Sorry I was travelling today.

LAV retired as an E-8 from the Army Special Mission unit - I would opine that he is a SME in the field of firearms instruction and usage.

You have been repeatedly asked to provided your CV that you base your statements off. You've done some creative back-peddling on the Safety aspect of it already.
Or failing the CV - would you explain your studies in this issue that gave you rise to beliefs.


I guess I'm just unsure of why so many folks feel AIWB is so dangerous.
I think the honest answer is lack of control - when in reality it is a lack of visibility (hard to see thru a student) while strong side holster are fairly visible from behind the line.
It is an illusion of control - as unless your doing one on one work you cannot see and stop everything.

[Marty Hayes]

Okay Kingsford, you win. I cannot keep up with your misdirection as to my intent here, you even stated you were wrong in interpreting what I said, so how can I win? You misinterpret what I clearly say, then go on and act like I said it anyway. How about this, if you still want to show everyone you legal chops. Answer my first questions in my post (#301).

1) Does the professional instructor owe a legal duty to his/her students to prevent them (the students) from shooting and/or killing themselves?

2) If the above answer is yes, does allowing AIWB carry violate this duty?

3) If the answer to #2 is yes, then what consequences will the instructor face if a student severely injures or kills him or herself while re-holstering using the AIWB carry position?

[Marty Hayes]

Sorry I was travelling today.

You have been repeatedly asked to provided your CV that you base your statements off. You've done some creative back-peddling on the Safety aspect of it already.
Or failing the CV - would you explain your studies in this issue that gave you rise to beliefs.
.

As noted earlier, I never claimed to be a SME here, despite your wrong assertion that I have. And, while you might want to see my CV, I can see no reason to do that. No one else is asked to qualify their statements by providing their CV's. As far as explaining my studies, suffice it to say that after 25 years as a professional trainer, and having taught tens of thousands of students, watching them holster their firearms with just about every type of holster and manner possible, I have concluded that shoving a gun in the front of your pants, while either pointing directly at, or very close by their pubic region is not an action that I consider acceptable on my range. And add the very real possibility that drawing the firearm while moving will result in pointing the gun at your femoral artery, that seals the deal as far as I am concerned.

[KevinB]

Okay Kingsford, you win. I cannot keep up with your misdirection as to my intent here, you even stated you were wrong in interpreting what I said, so how can I win? You misinterpret what I clearly say, then go on and act like I said it anyway. How about this, if you still want to show everyone you legal chops. Answer my first questions in my post (#301).

While I am not Kingsford, and I am not a lawyer (my father is, and his father was then later a Federal Judge)

But I will take a plunge at this:

1) Does the professional instructor owe a legal duty to his/her students to prevent them (the students) from shooting and/or killing themselves?

No - the instructor owes them a duty to demonstrate safe operation of a firearm, and to ensure as best they can that the students also follow safe operation of their firearms.

2) If the above answer is yes, does allowing AIWB carry violate this duty?

No - it is a valid carry method. Caveat, I would think that ANY Instructor regardless of carry method, would ensure that the students have been individually appraised with their holster and their holster technique

3) If the answer to #2 is yes, then what consequences will the instructor face if a student severely injures or kills him or herself while re-holstering using the AIWB carry position?

Answer was no - but to ask you a question what happens if a student shoots themselves with a IWB or OWB strongside hip holster?


Okay we get it, you don't like AIWB carry.

How big are your average classes?
What are your student to instructor ratio's?
Do you limit certain types of holsters or firearms in your classes?

[orionz06]

Okay Kingsford, you win. I cannot keep up with your misdirection as to my intent here, you even stated you were wrong in interpreting what I said, so how can I win? You misinterpret what I clearly say, then go on and act like I said it anyway. How about this, if you still want to show everyone you legal chops. Answer my first questions in my post (#301).

1) Does the professional instructor owe a legal duty to his/her students to prevent them (the students) from shooting and/or killing themselves?

2) If the above answer is yes, does allowing AIWB carry violate this duty?

3) If the answer to #2 is yes, then what consequences will the instructor face if a student severely injures or kills him or herself while re-holstering using the AIWB carry position?

At what point does this stop? No live ammo?

[Marty Hayes]

Answer was no - but to ask you a question what happens if a student shoots themselves with a IWB or OWB strongside hip holster?
Okay we get it, you don't like AIWB carry.
How big are your average classes?
What are your student to instructor ratio's?
Do you limit certain types of holsters or firearms in your classes?

In order.

They bleed.
Depends on the class. We have about a dozen classes, which run anywhere form 6-24 or more students.
One instructor per 3-6 students on the line shooting.
Yes.

[Mr_White]

As far as explaining my studies, suffice it to say that after 25 years as a professional trainer, and having taught tens of thousands of students, watching them holster their firearms with just about every type of holster and manner possible, I have concluded that shoving a gun in the front of your pants, while either pointing directly at, or very close by their pubic region is not an action that I consider acceptable on my range. And add the very real possibility that drawing the firearm while moving will result in pointing the gun at your femoral artery, that seals the deal as far as I am concerned.

I don't have anything to add to the legal discussion, which frankly I find quite fascinating. But I have something else to add: a clear, visual demonstration of the relative degrees of muzzle-body intersection involved in several of the most common circumstances of drawing and holstering in defensive handgun training. Take a look at the following video and see which of the three carry methods of AIWB, Strong Side IWB, and Strong Side OWB, result in the least muzzle body intersection, when the pistol is drawn while facing downrange and standing still, taking a step laterally left and right, moving dynamically left and right, and moving forward and backward. I counted zero for seven rule two violations from AIWB, four for seven entire leg violations from Strong Side IWB, and four for seven edge-of-leg violations from Strong Side OWB. It's my belief that AIWB done well, can be safer than either of the two common strong side methods, but that all three are within the common standard of care within the defensive handgun industry/community (I say that as a practitioner and trainer, not as a legal professional, so I hope you can forgive imprecise phrasing on my part.) Bottom line is that it is difficult for the gun to shoot what the gun is not pointed at, and based on my experience, training, and experimentation, AIWB can be undertaken even more safely than other much more common, popular, and perfectly legitimate carry methods when it comes to minimizing the gun being pointed at the user during normal defensive handgun training.

As to a couple of technical points about the video - I used a SIRT and taped the trigger back so the laser was continuously discharging. Knowing that it was the SIRT, I was in SIRT mode, which includes holstering more quickly than I try to holster a real gun. I used a tape line on the floor to keep my starting foot position consistent at about shoulder width apart. And I turned the lights down so the laser would be more visible.

[JHC]

Outstanding work there White.

[Yojimbo]

Thanks for posting that video Mr. White. The laser clearly shows when rule two is violated.

I also want to add that while the 4 rules are great to live by there are times when the situation will cause them to be violated. The key, as I see it, is to not violate more than one at the time. The 4 rules are stacked safety levels. If only one is violated there is normally little danger if any. The real problems arise when two or more are violated at the same time...

[BJJ]

Thanks for taking the time to do that video, Mr White.