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Thread: FBI lawsuit concerning S&W 1076

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Gadfly View Post
    I always wanted to try a full size 1006 to see how it would handle.
    Ditto me and the Glock 20. Two things have stopped me; the fact that the big-frame Glocks are simply too large for me to handle properly (too long of a trigger reach), and gearing up to reload yet another caliber isn't the most appealing thing on my to-do list.

    But the cartridge itself is rather intriguing, so I may do it yet, just because.

    I was never very interested in the big frame S&Ws, due to the weight. But they say the 1006 is one of the best of the breed, and tames the 10mm round rather handily.

    I have shot some full-power Norma 10mm ammo from a Bren Ten (another WAY too-large piece for me), and it was pretty darn intimidating. They say the G20 can take that all day, but what about the shooter??? I suspect I'd just get a .40 S&W barrel to practice with…

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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSP972 View Post
    Ditto me and the Glock 20. Two things have stopped me; the fact that the big-frame Glocks are simply too large for me to handle properly (too long of a trigger reach), and gearing up to reload yet another caliber isn't the most appealing thing on my to-do list.

    But the cartridge itself is rather intriguing, so I may do it yet, just because.

    I was never very interested in the big frame S&Ws, due to the weight. But they say the 1006 is one of the best of the breed, and tames the 10mm round rather handily.

    I have shot some full-power Norma 10mm ammo from a Bren Ten (another WAY too-large piece for me), and it was pretty darn intimidating. They say the G20 can take that all day, but what about the shooter??? I suspect I'd just get a .40 S&W barrel to practice with…

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    I will own a G20 before my next Alaska trip. I've decided to stop carrying the Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawk. You can be my 10mm reload crash test dummy......

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by LSP552 View Post
    I will own a G20 before my next Alaska trip. I've decided to stop carrying the Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawk. You can be my 10mm reload crash test dummy......
    Well, seeing as I did the leg work on the RDS-equipped G19s, and am now doing same on the G43… YOUR turn to pull the wagon…

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  4. #24
    Ref the original lawsuits against S&W 3rd gen; I recall a bit of drama at the time.

    One of the issues in question throughout much of the 90's was grip strength for newer candidates - females (and often mentioned smaller males, but the reality of biomechanics were such that this was a much lower percentage problem) as applicant pools changed over time. The objective standards for selection in LE and other armed roles required better documentation that was available in most cases, and several organizations were on the wrong side of litigation as a result.

    The trigger reach / trigger pull debate was front and center in all of this. Whether it needed to be or not, trigger pull became a proxy for grip strength in a lot of places. A common "objective" test added to selection at the time (particularly in northeastern LE, but copied elsewhere) was to require n number of trigger pulls in DAO, where n exceeded typical duty load - regardless of the typical mode of operation for DA/SA weapons. Whatever one thought of the rationale, it was an objective standard - on paper. The trick came when certain departments chose not to test simply with a DAO Smith, but rather simply modified the traditional DA action to work only as DA (to ensure no possible "cheating" with the lower weight pull). These were terrible triggers as a result - easily twice as heavy as duty (and in an era where a 14 pound first shot DA was considered a "good" trigger for liability reasons).

    Never thought much of all of this nonsense to game the overlawyered. I distinctly disliked the reinforcement of terrible, unusable trigger weights that these standards crept into later procurement and associated type evaluations - especially when coupled with prohibition on carrying anything other than issued items. But legal cases are not decided in a vacuum, and bad decisions get made when bad management tries to define standards around litigation.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Mas View Post
    The Hansen case was a class action suit involving multiple female agents, some 35 years ago, with K-frame round butt S&W revolvers and .38 +P ammo. I'm not aware of a class action suit involving the 1076. There was an individual lawsuit on the matter, however, Judy Cangealose v. FBI et al . The issues were much the same, trigger reach being too long etc., but malfunctions with the 1076 were also an issue. She had great difficulty working the slide with hammer down, and was not able to cock it to relieve mainspring pressure, which would have allowed her to rack the slide. (The FBI 1076 had a spurless hammer.) In testing, she was able to qualify with other guns she would have been allowed to carry on duty under FBI rules of the period, including the S&W 3913 that then-Director Louis Freeh was said to carry himself, but she was not allowed to do so in training. The Government settled with her at the 11th hour before the case went to trial.
    Just saw this. Mas is a wealth of knowledge on this subject (and many others), and I'm glad to see him visiting. Welcome.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by abu fitna View Post
    The trick came when certain departments chose not to test simply with a DAO Smith, but rather simply modified the traditional DA action to work only as DA (to ensure no possible "cheating" with the lower weight pull). These were terrible triggers as a result - easily twice as heavy as duty (and in an era where a 14 pound first shot DA was considered a "good" trigger for liability reasons).
    In Louisiana, the "standard" for this has always been a stock, un-modified S&W DA K frame revolver. The candidate grips the piece, sticks it though a six inch diameter hole cut into a piece of plywood (I have no idea where the six inch requirement for the hole came from). To pass the test, the candidate must pull the trigger through the full DA stroke 12 times, in rapid succession, without the revolver touching the sides of the hole. The index finger must be used to pull the trigger, one handed only.

    The local sheriff's office was administering this test to applicants as recently as five years ago; dunno if they still do it. The State Police quit doing it before I became FTU supervisor; for the same reasons we lost the 50 yard line as a mandatory qual item just before I took over.

    Three guesses as to what the reasons were…


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  7. #27
    "The FBI'S 10mm Pistol"; SSA John C. Hall, Unit Chief, Firearms Training Unit; FBI Academy, Quantico, VA; November 1989 -- https://web.archive.org/web/20130511...istol_hall.htm

    "FBI 10mm Notes"; SSA Urey W. Patrick, Firearms Training Unit; FBI Academy, Quantico, VA -- https://web.archive.org/web/20130330...10mm_notes.pdf

    Note that the 10mm 180gr subsonic load was developed (December 1988) and selected (February 1989) prior to contract award for the 10mm pistol (S&W 1076, January 1990).

  8. #28
    The females get paid the same money, but can't do the work. Then they get weekends and holidays off!

  9. #29
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    pat701, is this in the FBI where females can't do the work and get weekends and holidays off? I cound not find mention of this in the documents posted by SSA Hall and SSA Patrick. The female SA's I have encountered all seemed pretty competent and seemed to have the same schedule as male Agents.

  10. #30
    LE Forum Moderator BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    What's the FBI doing that females can't do? Like most investigative slots, if you can run a computer, telephone, fax, and coffee maker and know how to get information out of people in interview/interrogation that's 95% of your day.*

    *Yeah, I know, HRT and whatnot. That's not what most of them do. Our liason FBI guy does the same thing I do, only with a smaller badge and bigger car.

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