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Thread: New 9 mm ammo testing

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    The RA9TA is OK, it was previously used by agencies here but over time was found not to offer any advantage in OIS incident results compared to the better 124 +P or 147 gr loads. We just keep some RA9TA around now for body armor testing--no one here carries it on duty any more.

    9 mm Win 127 gr +P+ JHP Ranger Talon RA9TA
    BG: VEL=1320 f/s , PEN=12.9”, RD=0.52”, RL=0.36”, RW=121.1 gr
    4LD: VEL=1324 f/s , PEN=12.7”, RD=0.62”, RL=0.38”, RW=123.9 gr
    Thanks for this.

    I've carried it for some time. My HKs (and I) handle it well, but if there is no major advantage over the plain 147gr or 124gr +p, I may just go back to one of those and negate the additional muzzle flip that it causes. Not that it's not unmanageable, but if there is no real advantage, then I don't see a reason to carry it. It can go into my "rainy day" stash.

  2. #52
    Member LHS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    The RA9TA is OK, it was previously used by agencies here but over time was found not to offer any advantage in OIS incident results compared to the better 124 +P or 147 gr loads. We just keep some RA9TA around now for body armor testing--no one here carries it on duty any more.

    9 mm Win 127 gr +P+ JHP Ranger Talon RA9TA
    BG: VEL=1320 f/s , PEN=12.9”, RD=0.52”, RL=0.36”, RW=121.1 gr
    4LD: VEL=1324 f/s , PEN=12.7”, RD=0.62”, RL=0.38”, RW=123.9 gr
    I think I know the answer, but I wanted to confirm: is the Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364) as mentioned above identical to the "Bonded PDX1" load, item number S9MMPDB1? Most of the other bonded loads in the list had the civilian-marketed PDX1 equivalents listed, but i didn't see it for the 147gr offering.

  3. #53
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    Same.

  4. #54
    Member LHS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Same.
    Thanks!

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by nternal View Post
    Has anyone ever seen the HST show up anywhere in Canada. Finding Winchester Ranger T series is almost impossible. I would suspect that the HST would be even harder to find up here.
    Here in the USA Federal now markets the HST to the public .

    But in 9mm I'm just finding the standard pressure 124gr HST
    Its 50 FPS slower than +P version.

    I know they have the 180gr for the 40S&W

  6. #56
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Perhaps the documented success of the 9mm 147 gr JHP in California is a result of differing laws of physics on the West Coast than in other areas
    I'm going to throw out a theory;

    People in California often wear less clothing than in places like Alaska, leading to non issues with heavy clothing clogging the bullets and early success of the 147gr loads, which were later improved upon.

    Add to this mix that some of the early 147gr ammo had QC issues. A very good friend chronographed some of the early Federal 9mm he was issued through his Sig 226 and was seeing velocities in the low 700s. This is obviously too low, and would certainly lead to issues with fails-to-expand. His agency had an OIS where this exact issue popped up, with six solid hits through a bad guy all failing to expand. Cops talk about these sorts of things .........

    So, 147gr often worked early on, but horror stories popped up. Digging into the why, where and when of things often gives perspective.


    Interesting conversation with Pat Rogers last week, in which he relayed that non hollow point .38 SWCs worked rather well on bad guys in his experience and the not inconsiderable experience of his troops and the guys he worked with, IF you hit them where they needed to be hit.

    It appears that a sufficient hole, made deeply enough, applied with good marksmanship, works. What a concept.




    PS; yes, I know that both Alaska and Canada are rather cold in the winter.
    Last edited by Chuck Haggard; 10-02-2013 at 06:07 AM.

  7. #57
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    Also gets kinda cold in the Sierra's--those tallish mountains on the eastern side of California that get snow on them in winter: places like Mammoth Mountain, Yosemite, Lake Tahoe...

    Some of the early 147 gr JHP loads were quite slow--but they were built for a USG contract for use in suppressed MP5's, not for pistols; unfortunately quite a bit of that ammo eventually ended up sold to LE who did not know what it was designed for. Current 147 gr LE JHP is designed specifically for pistols, so it works just fine.

    Concur on full wadcutters--they work great; I carried them for years in my J-frames.
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  8. #58
    Very Pro Dentist Chuck Haggard's Avatar
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    Copy Doc, was just delving into some of the history since it turned that direction for a bit. I often like to dig into the why-how-when of the info we have and use, sometimes we end up using TTPs or info we have no idea of how it came to be, or why.

    I was thinking specifically to the info from San Diego, I have never been there but I hear the weather is nice. Many of the other successful deployments of 147gr loads were in SoCal, IIRC


    In the conversation with Pat we talked about the NYPD use of the .38special SWC, and that led to observations on the supposed effectiveness, or lack thereof, of the .30 carbine. We both think, he with much more experience in application, that these rounds lacked effectiveness (according to the mythology anyway) primarily due to the people using them missing a lot.
    Last edited by Chuck Haggard; 10-02-2013 at 06:16 AM.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    Here in the USA Federal now markets the HST to the public .

    But in 9mm I'm just finding the standard pressure 124gr HST
    Its 50 FPS slower than +P version.

    I know they have the 180gr for the 40S&W
    Rich,

    Have you found out any additional info on the 124gr HST?
    I just purchased my first 9mm (own 40S&W) and all I can seem to find
    is the HST1 124gr.

    Thanks

  10. #60
    tpd223, I have an old friend who is a retired LAPD street warrior with five won gunfights under his belt. He told me that the .38 SWC round, which he used in the last two fights, was much more effective than the RNL he used in the first three.

    And my uncle, who carried a M1 carbine through the last half of his time as a grunt in the Pacific during WW II, told me, when I asked about the efficacy of the cartridge, "That little rifle was a Jap-killin' SOB!"

    .

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