New 9 mm ammo testing

[cnelson]

I know this thread is old, but it is the most on target on what I am asking.

I am interested in the tests/results of Cor-Bon flagship 9mm bullets; SD09115 and SD09125.

I am surprised to see the heavier (147g) bullets for 9mm being so highly rated now, I remember them not reliably expanding, especially from less than 4" barrels.

Can you please enlighten me? I currently use the SD09115 in my Kahr cw9, and my larger pistol. And I would like to understand how this round is lacking and why when moving to another round.

Thanks in advance!

[Sparks2112]

I know this thread is old, but it is the most on target on what I am asking.

I am interested in the tests/results of Cor-Bon flagship 9mm bullets; SD09115 and SD09125.

I am surprised to see the heavier (147g) bullets for 9mm being so highly rated now, I remember them not reliably expanding, especially from less than 4" barrels.

Can you please enlighten me? I currently use the SD09115 in my Kahr cw9, and my larger pistol. And I would like to understand how this round is lacking and why when moving to another round.

Thanks in advance!

The short answer is technology has improved.

[DocGKR]

What data do you have that would indicate Cor-Bon SD09115 and SD09125 are effective duty loads that meet all the FBI test criteria?

Why do you think 147 gr JHP's have not been effective?

[cnelson]

Please know that I am asking these questions so that I may learn. And Dr. Gary here has been leading in real ballistics research, but I couldn't compare any data with what I thought to be top notch what is considered the best now.

I also apologize, as my knowledge is 10+ years old and came from backyard tests, the book stopping power, and Massad Ayoob.(and some online sources I thought to be good) Between these I switched from federal for my SD, to corbon.(and also 9mm rather than 38 special) It was my understanding that they where effective duty loads that meet test criteria. I knew of many LE using those loads(as well as corbon for the 38 special) So if its not, then i guess I learned something already.

I'm also asking because some of what I read is the tests are being done with various barriers, and at least a note here or there for barrels smaller than 4". But all I see is a list of good ammunition without any data to make my own choice from them.(or even if other rounds would be better for other situations, such as LE care more about car door or windshield barriers)

About the 147 not expanding, Many years ago I shot 147g into milk containers(and some limited gell on a hot day) out of subcompact pistol and did not having reliable expansion. I don't remember exactly what that ammo was, but it was 147g federal. Yes, I know, not good tests, but it was either that or trust other people doing the same thing or less.

If the data I am asking about is publish, please point me to it, as everything I find basically points back the data here on these forums.

Again, I'm not questioning you guys, I'm trying to learn.

[TGS]

There's probably some articles about the performance of Cor-Bon over in the old Firearms Tactical journal archives, which is a good source of peer-reviewed and properly cited information. If I'm not mistaken, there also might be some stuff about the efficacy of water jug and wet pack testing....long story short, it's useless.

Some of the older 147gr options did indeed have failures to expand, but pretty much every design back then was less robust and prone to clogging anyway. Still, that doesn't mean the 147gr options were not effective or preferred to lighter, faster 115gr options that routinely expanded well (if not clogged) but failed to penetrate deep enough to disrupt vital tissue. I think it was 1987 when the SDSO tactical team had a shootout with sumdood, and it took 27 rounds of 115gr Silvertip to incapacitate him. All rounds impacted as what can be considered good center-mass lethal hits, but they failed to reach vital tissue. He finally dropped when the 27th round "missed" and hit some big important blood vessel by chance. This wasn't necessarily a freak event either, as it was being noted by police departments across the nation and most famously exemplified by the Platt/Matix shooutout in Miami. SDSO switched to the 147gr Silvertip and their problems with incapacitation were reduced significantly.

I think that story is covered in the Firearms Tactical journal archives as well, but this was hopefully a decent primer. And, of course, as another member mentioned.....it's not 1989 anymore. Bullet technology and design have evolved and changed just a bit in the last 20-30 years, mostly driven by evidence.

[DocGKR]

I've got the autopsy x-rays from the SDSO shooting mentioned above--very scary looking.

Interested individuals might wish to read this review of Marshall and Sanow's "Handgun Stopping Power", as the book has some significant issues: http://www.firearmstactical.com/afte.htm.

Many types of Corbon handgun ammunition has problems meeting basic LE handgun terminal performance requirements as established by the FBI BRF. For LE duty and self-defense ammunition, it is always a good idea to stick with vendors who have an established track record of supplying large government contracts, as they typically offer better QC; typically Black Hills, Federal, Hornady, Remington, Speer, Winchester.

A variety of equally important methodologies are used for terminal performance testing, including actual shooting incident reconstruction, forensic evidence analysis, and post-mortem data and/or surgical findings; properly conducted ethical animal test results; and laboratory testing—this includes the use of tissue simulants proven to have correlation with living tissue. Some individuals seem to be under the mistaken impression that one of these areas is more important than others--this is not the case, as each category provides important information to researchers.

The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg’s material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of projectiles in actual shooting incidents.

Like SDPD, other large California agencies have successfully used the 9mm 147 gr JHP, such as LAPD, LASO, SJPD, SCPD. These and other California agencies successfully using the 9mm 147 gr JHP have thousands of officers with hundreds of officer involved shootings, all who have successfully used 9mm 147 gr JHP loads.

Perhaps the documented success of the 9mm 147 gr JHP in California is a result of differing laws of physics on the West Coast than in other areas. Unfortunately, that conjecture does not stand up to scrutiny as the extensive Royal Canadian Mounted Police studies determined that the 9mm 147 gr JHP was the most effective load for the caliber. In addition, during the ammunition trials for the U.S. Military M11 pistol conducted by Navy Weapons Center Crane Indiana, the 9mm 147gr JHP was selected as the issue load for the M11, beating a variety of other 9mm JHP loads, including both standard pressure and +P pressure 115 gr and 124 gr JHP’s. Not to mention the FBI has consistently selected 9 mm 147 gr JHP's for issue to their personnel who are running 9 mm.

[ST911]

The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg’s material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of projectiles in actual shooting incidents.

Like SDPD, other large California agencies have successfully used the 9mm 147 gr JHP, such as LAPD, LASO, SJPD, SCPD...

...In addition, during the ammunition trials for the U.S. Military M11 pistol conducted by Navy Weapons Center Crane Indiana, the 9mm 147gr JHP was selected as the issue load for the M11, beating a variety of other 9mm JHP loads, including both standard pressure and +P pressure 115 gr and 124 gr JHP’s. Not to mention the FBI has consistently selected 9 mm 147 gr JHP's for issue to their personnel who are running 9 mm.

IIRC, much of the above involves the 9MS load specifically, yes?

[DocGKR]

I believe 1/3 of the SDPD shootings were Winchester OSM, the other 2/3 or so were Federal 9MS; both the Win OSM and 9MS had problems with plugging when shot through heavy clothing. Most of the other CA LE agencies mentioned were using later generation designs like Ranger Talon, Gold Dot, and Fed Tac or HST. Obviously the FBI is issuing Win Bonded.

[BoppaBear]

Hey Doc,

This thread has some great info in it! Thanks. By chance have you done any testing on the RA9TA (127gr +p+ Ranger)? I've seen some online ballistics tests, but nothing professional. I also like the 124gr +p and 147gr that have already been talked about.

Edit: Found this in your Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense sticky:

"The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber bonded 124 gr +P JHP (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester 124 gr +P bonded JHP (RA9BA)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)"

[DocGKR]

The RA9TA is OK, it was previously used by agencies here but over time was found not to offer any advantage in OIS incident results compared to the better 124 +P or 147 gr loads. We just keep some RA9TA around now for body armor testing--no one here carries it on duty any more.

9 mm Win 127 gr +P+ JHP Ranger Talon RA9TA
BG: VEL=1320 f/s , PEN=12.9”, RD=0.52”, RL=0.36”, RW=121.1 gr
4LD: VEL=1324 f/s , PEN=12.7”, RD=0.62”, RL=0.38”, RW=123.9 gr