Do-All Carbine - More Possible than ever?

[ASH556]

Man, I still get hung up on the optic. I keep wanting to like the low power variables but I haven't gotten behind one yet that I thought "wow, I could really make this work." The closest is the Leupold Mark 6, but I haven't shot one yet, just looked through. Even then, the FFP makes it pretty useless on 1X if the battery is gone. What's proven this to me, at least for now, is shooting 3gun. I'm WAAAAAY faster with an Aimpoint, even on a course of fire with 100yd targets than with a variable because the tradeoff of magnification is field of view. When you're shooting a multiple target array against the clock, you've got to see as much as possible so you don't get lost.

Maybe someone's found that magical unicorn or maybe my eyes just need to learn more.

[breakingtime91]

Man, I still get hung up on the optic. I keep wanting to like the low power variables but I haven't gotten behind one yet that I thought (wow, I could really make this work). The closest is the Leupold Mark 6, but I haven't shot one yet, just looked through. Even then, the FFP makes it pretty useless on 1X if the battery is gone. What's proven this to me, at least for now, is shooting 3gun. I'm WAAAAAY faster with an Aimpoint, even on a course of fire with 100yd targets than with a variable because the tradeoff of magnification is field of view. When you're shooting a multiple target array against the clock, you've got to see as much as possible so you don't get lost.

Maybe someone's found that magical unicorn or maybe my eyes just need to learn more.

I guess it is just priorities. I know people can shoot to pretty far distances with the dot +hold overs, my problem is range estimation on unknown targets with just a red dot.. that is where I am really considering going to a variable. It has been, at least for me, easier to adjust off of impacts + guess what the range is with a variable.

[secondstoryguy]

The major reason I like magnification is target ID when lighting is low and the target is obscured or lacking contrast with the background. Take that Aimpoint or those irons hog hunting and you will quickly realize it. I've taken many guys hunting who insist on using irons/red dots. It's a frequent thing to plainly see game at 50-100m thats 10m or so inside the cover of brush/trees but being in the shadows its very hard for even good eyes to get a good aiming point. With just a little magnification(3-4X) it breaks the target out of the gloom and allows a much more precise shot.

In LEO work I like the aimpoint but for a GP carbine magnification would be preferred.

[breakingtime91]

The major reason I like magnification is target ID when lighting is low and the target is obscured or lacking contrast with the background. Take that Aimpoint or those irons hog hunting and you will quickly realize it. I've taken many guys hunting who insist on using irons/red dots. It's a frequent thing to plainly see game at 50-100m thats 10m or so inside the cover of brush/trees but being in the shadows its very hard for even good eyes to get a good aiming point. With just a little magnification(3-4X) it breaks the target out of the gloom and allows a much more precise shot.

In LEO work I like the aimpoint but for a GP carbine magnification would be preferred.

I think I know why but why the red dot instead of magnification for police work?

[shane45]

I think maybe that would work for some, but the caliber alone wouldn't be feasible for many simply due to ammo costs. So while that rifle might be *capable* of doing everything, I bet it rarely would for me (and probably quite a few others).

My sense of a "do all" would be a gun that you not only *could* use for a broad array of applications but that you also *would*. Applications such as:
-2/3-gun
-precision shooting
-home/homestead defense (suppressed)
-plinking
-hunting (suppressed and non)

So while the SR25 certainly could do all of those (although suppressing it might limit some of those applications, or at least push them over the limit of being optimal), I think a 12.5" stainless 5.56 would be something that would actually get used across that spectrum.

Yes I am sure it might be cost prohibitive for sure. But in the pursuit of the most capable rifle across the board, the 7.62 brought the down range energy to the table that the 5.56 just couldn't compete with. Other considerations were bullet deflection in brushy environments. Im sure there were a few more things I came up with but down range energy was the main one. And again, this was a pursuit of a broad spectrum. Dial back that spectrum just a little and a 5.56, Im sure, falls into place. And in that role of dialing it back I have a KAC SR15E3 with a S&B short dot on it. My original concept was to have kit zeroed to each rifle. But in doing some testing I found I was really not giving much of anything up in terms of speed and accuracy running a daylight usable red dot in a scope vs an aimpoint for close in but was gaining a ton being able to dial in mag. SBR's and suppressors aren't an option in my area unfortunatly.

As a side note, I actually won a small 2 gun style match in my area running the .308. It was an interesting layout that had everything from 7 yd shots all the way to small plates at 100 in the same course of fire. Against a sea of 5.56 rifles, all running non magnified red dots (aimpoints and eotechs) I posted the single fastest time and won the match overall. It was NOT because I was a better shooter. I entirely give credit to the optics! Being able to run at zero mag for close up and dial for distance gave me a huge time and accuracy advantage. That observation is what drove me in the direction of the "broad spectrum rifle". That was about 5 years ago. I haven't moved off that concept much.

[rob_s]

Yes I am sure it might be cost prohibitive for sure. But in the pursuit of the most capable rifle across the board, the 7.62 brought the down range energy to the table that the 5.56 just couldn't compete with. Other considerations were bullet deflection in brushy environments. Im sure there were a few more things I came up with but down range energy was the main one. And again, this was a pursuit of a broad spectrum. Dial back that spectrum just a little and a 5.56, Im sure, falls into place. And in that role of dialing it back I have a KAC SR15E3 with a S&B short dot on it. My original concept was to have kit zeroed to each rifle. But in doing some testing I found I was really not giving much of anything up in terms of speed and accuracy running a daylight usable red dot in a scope vs an aimpoint for close in but was gaining a ton being able to dial in mag. SBR's and suppressors aren't an option in my area unfortunatly.

As a side note, I actually won a small 2 gun style match in my area running the .308. It was an interesting layout that had everything from 7 yd shots all the way to small plates at 100 in the same course of fire. Against a sea of 5.56 rifles, all running non magnified red dots (aimpoints and eotechs) I posted the single fastest time and won the match overall. It was NOT because I was a better shooter. I entirely give credit to the optics! Being able to run at zero mag for close up and dial for distance gave me a huge time and accuracy advantage. That observation is what drove me in the direction of the "broad spectrum rifle". That was about 5 years ago. I haven't moved off that concept much.

All of which would appear to indicate that neither are actually sufficient as tru single GP rifles, no?

Listen, if you can afford to shoot 7.62 ammo in a volume that meets your needs, I'm jealous to say the least. There was a time 15-20 years ago when 5.56 surplus was $100/k and 7.62 was $12/k and people thought I was extravagant for doing the same. I just can't justify the cost today. Not for a (for me) fantasy reason for "needing" down range apenergy vs the real world costs of ammo.

[Chuck Haggard]

That's all a good point. I should couch that I'm not really talking mil or other issue guns as those discussions are really only applicable to the people doing the buying, which is a pretty tiny number of people, and I ain't one of that tiny group.

Would a coyote not fall to a good projectile from a 12.5" gun? I'm asking because I don't know. I'm in SE Florida, and with just over an acre I wouldn't be shooting one that far. Nor am I likely to encounter a 200 yard shot on a deer, or a deer large enough to not notice a .223 from a 12.5" gun.

and, I should say, that there are probably some things that the AR wouldn't work for at all. For example, I'd be much more likely to shoot said coyote on said acre with a bolt-action suppressed .22 for a variety of reasons. Much more likely to shoot said deer with an unsuppressed .308, again reasons vary. So when I say "GP AR" I really mean "GP for any P where I might otherwise already want an AR, not Ps where I wouldn't use an AR to begin with".

If the bullet has lost enough velocity it might not work as one would hope, coyotes aren't very thick side-to-side. The deer here are very often 200lbs or bigger.

Not sayin anyone is wrong, just sayin that's MY situation and reasoning behind my choices.

[shane45]

Rob, I guess it should be clarified that I approach the "broad spectrum rifle" from an approach of literally covering the broadest spectrum of scenarios. That means Im not limiting it to my area. Living near a nuclear reactor, its possible I could need to grab one and go. With no idea where I might end up or what the situation is it is truly a theoretical exercise. This setup gives me the ability to go from 7 yds to 800 yds. In general I approach guns like golf clubs. Pick the right club for the situation. But if I could only grab one....the EMC would be it. Now as for 308 ammo, yeah I am at the end of my supply of 308 bought at $115 shipped per 1k But I have done pretty good picking up Privi for around 11 bucks a box. Im pretty entrenched in the 308.

[SecondsCount]

I have been running this setup for the last five years:

Sabre Defense 16" fluted stainless midlength with YHM comp
VTAC tube
Magpul furniture
In that pic, the gun was new and on its first outing. At that time it had a 3-9 Burris TAC30 but I have since replaced it with a 1-4x Vortex Razor. The bipod was on it because I was sighting it in and it normally has a sling.

I have shot 3-gun, prairie dogs, 10" circles at 400 yards, taken a carbine class, and plinked with it. That barrel is a 1:8 twist and will stabilize everything from a 50 gr. V-max to a 77 SMK. My personal belief is that 68-69 grain bullets are the best all around weight the AR due to the limited mag length. 223 is all about velocity.

I'm with Chuck in that I would keep the barrel at 16". I own a 12" upper on a pistol lower and shooting steel at 180 yards, I could notice a difference in velocity between the 12 and 16 inch uppers. A suppressor is not yet in my stable but even so, I am not sure I would want to lose the speed. Then again, I live in a part of the country where stretching the legs on a rifle is not uncommon. In an urban setting, a 12" upper might be the ticket.

[secondstoryguy]

I think I know why but why the red dot instead of magnification for police work?

Aimpoints are small/light, I can leave them on for years, they are quick to deploy(always on), and most of the distances in my AOR are short(<100m) with the average deployment distance probably being 25-50m. I've been tempted to run an additional long gun with a 1-4 or 1-6 in the trunk for specific uses(active shooter at the nearby college, barricaded subject in building/car, etc) but I still believe that it's hard to beat an Aimpoint for general patrol use.

When they build a 1-4/1-6 with Aimpoint-like battery life my CC is going to take a hit.....