Do-All Carbine - More Possible than ever?

[NH Shooter]

I have both an Arsenal 107 and Krebs, set up with a T1. They function fine, although are on the heavy side. The deal breaker for me is how much better almost any AR shoots, which in terms of pure accuracy, make them more satisfying to me.

This. I had a Krebs 103k and while it was nicely assembled and finished, it never did much better than 2.5 MOA and once you start adding stuff, they get heavy in a hurry.

For a lightweight do-it-all carbine, a well-configured AR is a tough act to follow.

[SecondsCount]

500-600 yards? Would need to shake it out and see but an AR can easily do 600 so I would be optimistic with the AK and try for at least 400-500

I am in no way trying to talk you out of your plan but a couple things to consider-

600 isn't easy but an AR is capable. Based on some recent reading, it would seem that 1-1.5 MOA (6-9") is acceptable for 600 yard accuracy when engaging an enemy. I am not sure if an AK in 7.62x39 is capable of that.

If you consider that a 123 grain 7.62x39 bullet has a ballistic coefficient of .225 while a 55 grain 5.56 has a BC of .243 and is moving substantially faster, the AR already has an advantage with the wind. Throw in a 77 grain bullet in the 5.56 and BC's jump to nearly .400 with some loss of velocity. Up close and personal, the AK has an energy advantage but at 600, it is almost equal because of the poor BC of the bullet. Even at 300 yards, the AK round only has 8% more energy than a 77 grain 5.56.

[pastaslinger]

I am in no way trying to talk you out of your plan but a couple things to consider-

600 isn't easy but an AR is capable. Based on some recent reading, it would seem that 1-1.5 MOA (6-9") is acceptable for 600 yard accuracy when engaging an enemy. I am not sure if an AK in 7.62x39 is capable of that.

If you consider that a 123 grain 7.62x39 bullet has a ballistic coefficient of .225 while a 55 grain 5.56 has a BC of .243 and is moving substantially faster, the AR already has an advantage with the wind. Throw in a 77 grain bullet in the 5.56 and BC's jump to nearly .400 with some loss of velocity. Up close and personal, the AK has an energy advantage but at 600, it is almost equal because of the poor BC of the bullet. Even at 300 yards, the AK round only has 8% more energy than a 77 grain 5.56.

I understand and would not be going for insane accuracy. If the AK can do 2 moa at 500 I would be pleased, 1-1.5 moa and I would be thrilled

[NH Shooter]

I understand and would not be going for insane accuracy. If the AK can do 2 moa at 500 I would be pleased, 1-1.5 moa and I would be thrilled

IMO, very doubtful...

[HCM]

I am in no way trying to talk you out of your plan but a couple things to consider-

600 isn't easy but an AR is capable. Based on some recent reading, it would seem that 1-1.5 MOA (6-9") is acceptable for 600 yard accuracy when engaging an enemy. I am not sure if an AK in 7.62x39 is capable of that.

If you consider that a 123 grain 7.62x39 bullet has a ballistic coefficient of .225 while a 55 grain 5.56 has a BC of .243 and is moving substantially faster, the AR already has an advantage with the wind. Throw in a 77 grain bullet in the 5.56 and BC's jump to nearly .400 with some loss of velocity. Up close and personal, the AK has an energy advantage but at 600, it is almost equal because of the poor BC of the bullet. Even at 300 yards, the AK round only has 8% more energy than a 77 grain 5.56.

An AK in 5.45x39 would be a much better choice for longer range than 7.62x39.

[pastaslinger]

An AK in 5.45x39 would be a much better choice for longer range than 7.62x39.

I don't see the point of 5.45 in an AK versus 5.56 in an AR aside from ammo cost given the AK can do better with steel case

[HCM]

IMO, very doubtful...

A 2 moa AK in 7.62x39 is a rare bird, in 5.45x39 a 2- 3 moa AK is not uncommon.

[HCM]

I don't see the point of 5.45 in an AK versus 5.56 in an AR aside from ammo cost given the AK can do better with steel case

I agree. I was referring to 5.45 in an AK vs. 7.62 x39 in an AK. Of those two options, the 5.45 is superior in both accuracy and performance at longer ranges.

[El Cid]

My view hasn't changed. While I can use rifles with short barrels and red dot optics for most things I will expect to encounter... if I want a rifle that will truly do it "all", I want a LPV and free-floated 16" bbl. A non-performance benefit is that a 16" bbl makes interstate travel less complicated.

[jeep45238]

I agree. I was referring to 5.45 in an AK vs. 7.62 x39 in an AK. Of those two options, the 5.45 is superior in both accuracy and performance at longer ranges.

And the AK's native calibers are 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 - I learned a long time ago that to save headaches, stick with calibers that are native to the original design, especially for semi-auto rifles. That's the disadvantage that 5.56 has in an ak: non-standard parts/mags that can complicate life or not work out at all.

That said I recently ditched my 5.45x39AK (Vepr) for reasons recently addressed here. It was capable enough, but bare-bones with a H1 optic and RS Regulate mount was a heavy SOB that really limited speed of manipulations/tore up my wrists. No issues holding 6 inch groups at 200 yards standing. Price of quality mags for AK's is higher than AR's, and I'm seeing AR parts being sold at Dick's now (even though they still don't sell semi-auto centerfire rifles). Seems to me the black rifle is on the cusp of no longer being demonized and is instead getting reckognized for what it is - the most popular centerfire rifle model in the USA.

A secondary reason was my astigmatism is getting worse and red-dots are less usable than they were 10 years ago (they used to be 500 yard optics, now 200 is pushing it). Iron sights don't give me issues however, and AR irons are much easier/faster for me to make fast good hits than AK irons. Lighter, easier to make hits with, easier to support....hard to argue with.