Going About Things

[free]

Hello all. I'm new to shooting, and new around here. As I'm beginning the journey I have a few thoughts, and a question or two, and I figured this forum to be one of the best places to get some information on first steps (in hopes of avoiding as many mistakes as possible).

Background:

• About to attend a CCW set of classes in Illinois
• Basically no significant experience (I've shot a 1911 under the very watchful eye of a D.C. Pistol instructor one time)
• A firm understanding of training "for the fight" in other applications which is helping me understand the commitment this will be and the need for continual training and effort

So here's where I could use some guidance and help:

Concealed carry is important to me, and will continue to be so. I'm of the mindset that a firearm won't do me any good if I don't carry it so I intend to. That said I understand that I don't know how to approach this weapons system and so I'm looking for good training in the area and I would really like to find a training partner (someone who I can work with after and between classes on things).

I'd also like to know if anyone out there can/would be willing to help me go through some carry positions and firearms. I don't own yet, and before I run out and buy something I'd like to make sure to get the right weapon for my situation (or as many of my situations as I can). I will be carrying on my person as oft as possible (after I'm comfortable and competent to do so, I process I will not short change) but I will have to carry with a tucked in shirt. I spend half of my life in dress clothes. I know concealment can be done very well in dress clothes but I also know it's a "find what fits you" situation.

Obligatory shout out to Yute for being a small dude and tucking in his shirt, ToddG for being ToddG, and many other people who have been involved in the great and very educational discussions that I've read so far (YVK: awesome medical analysis).

[SecondsCount]

Welcome aboard.

The only advice I can offer is to be wary of anyone behind the counter at a gun shop. They are there to sell guns, not necessarily looking out for your best interest.

[YVK]

Free, welcome. I myself have not figured out how to carry with a tucked in shirt. It depends on institutional culture and climate (the latter in a direct meaning of it), but in my place (and frankly most places I worked at) leaving a jacket on for the entire day with my job content would be completely unnatural. This may also depend on the image you cultivate; I presume if you have always left your jacket on, there will be less questions raised. The tuckable holsters never worked for me. If I don't have a closed front garment or fanny pack, it is a smart carry for me.

Check with our own WIILSHOOT and NickDrak in regards to training in IL. They both are in a greater Chicagoland and should be able to help.

I've not recommended anything other than Glock 19 to any new shooter who expressed an interest in ccw. The rare exception is those who contemplate aiwb, in which case I suggest to consider HK P2000.

[SLG]

Just in the FWIW category, I think learning to shoot with the gun you will probably end up carrying in your situation is not ideal. You can carry a G19 in Smart carry and if that works for you then you're done. Don't know how big you are or what you tolerance to inconvenience is, but a G43 in smart carry seems better to me, and then I'd get a G17 to learn to shoot with. A J frame in the pocket or ankle would be the traditional solution. A G43 may work there for you or it may not. G26 too. Plenty of choices from S&W as well. Point is, its more the mode of carry than the gun, and learning to shoot a bigger gun is better. Those skills will translate extremely well to any of the smaller 9mm autos, which I see as niche weapons.

Another very viable option is something like the Ken Null shoulder rigs (although these days there will be plenty of ways to get that done from custom makers). Worn under your shirt, they will be fast and convenient compared to many other options. Also old school.

Good luck!

[RoyGBiv]

Ken Null shoulder rigs

Interesting... especially the synthetics.

Ken needs to invest in some better images. His photos are way too tiny.

Thanks for the tip.

[rob_s]

First, you don't know enough, and can't learn enough on the internut, to get it right the first time. Get out of that mindset right away. Everything in shooting is an experiment. And a lifelong experiment at that.

There's shooting, and there's carrying, and one fosters the other, IME.

Find a gun that you shoot well, that you enjoy shooting, that you enjoy owning, that will get you out to the range. Best if it has a smaller variant/version with similar controls and feel that you can carry. Put the shooting gun in a holster that facilitates shooting (like a Blade-Tech OWB) and the carry gun in a holster that facilitates carry (like an IWB or AIWB). Nobody else's advice on carry location/holster is going to apply to you because it is entirely personal, even across people who seemingly have the same body type and attire. Be prepared to throw out a lot of holsters, or keep them in a drawer.

Examples would be:
-Glock19/17 for shooting, Glock 43 for carry
-S&W M&P fullsize for shooting, M&P Shield for carry
-5" steel-frame 1911 for shooting, aluminum-frame officer's for carry


Finally, be prepared for everything you think you know now to be wrong in a year. And then a year after that, it will happen again. And again a year later.

[free]

First, you don't know enough, and can't learn enough on the internut, to get it right the first time.

I'm certainly not here to "learn it online". That's why I'm hoping to both connect with someone local to me and find a good local training culture. I also understand that I'm not going to have it "nailed" out of the gate. That said I also know from life experience that working some things out before "going for it" helps prevent slop, and unnecessary waste.

I know this is probably beaten to death but the hope is to go no smaller than a G26 or a S&W but it'd be wonderful to find out I can, within some reason, conceal a 17/19 (or similar) with a tucked in shirt. That's kind of the "experiment" bit I'm wondering about. After some of the life experiences I've had (full time FF/Medic and other such) I'm a very big fan of training with as little variation in gear as possible.

[StraitR]

Rob, I've been reading your comments for years and years on multiple boards, and admittedly, while I more often than not agree with you, you can come off a little crass at times. That being said, I think this is the best advice and delivery I've ever seen given on the topic, and as you indirectly alluded to, it gets discussed A LOT online. Very good insight into a topic too often filled with emotion and pride, and it mirrors my experience and thoughts well.

Great advice.

[SecondsCount]

Rob, I've been reading your comments for years and years on multiple boards, and admittedly, while I more often than not agree with you, you can come off a little crass at times. That being said, I think this is the best advice and delivery I've ever seen given on the topic, and as you indirectly alluded to, it gets discussed A LOT online. Very good insight into a topic too often filled with emotion and pride, and it mirrors my experience and thoughts well.

Great advice.

Agreed.

[David S.]

You're not going to learn to shoot in a CHL class. You will learn some basic safety stuff, some legal stuff and they will tell you about basic marksmanship. Then, depending on state requirements, you're off to the range to shoot a simple qual course.

You might want to find a good training facility that has the full introductory coursework (most do). Work through the First Steps, or what ever they call the Handgun 101 and 102 classes. They should be reasonably inexpensive and low stress. Even if it seems too simplistic, go through the process of learning which end of the gun the bullet comes out of.

Take the first few classes with their guns. Once you have a solid understanding of the basics, then go to a range that has a wide variety of guns that you can rent. They will probably require you to shoot their ammo through their guns, so buy a few boxes of ammo and sample everything. If you find a gun that stands out, go back and rent it a second time and put a few boxes through it again, just to make sure.

Make sure that
-you can shoot it reasonably well.
-it's comfortable.
-you can reach the controls.
-your natural shooting position doesn't foul controls. (example: Many people have a problem with their thumb naturally resting on the slide catch lever of SIG P-series guns and HK P-series guns. This prevents the slide from correctly locking back on an empty mag. You can certainly train around it or find an aftermarket solution, but why handicap yourself with bad ergo's)

Find a gun with a reputation for reliability that fits the above criteria, but don't worry about choosing the perfect gun on your first try. Don't put a lot of emotional stock in your first gun..... Allow yourself to let go of it if it doesn't work for you.