When to stick with or ditch LEM?

[imp1295]

All,

Long time follower, first time poster.

I have a 9mm LEM p2000sk purchased a few months ago, and I must admit the transition has been tough. For background, I carried an M9 as an infantryman in the Army, and currently carry an M&P 9 for work. I have owned, and sold, and M&P 9 and compact because I felt the ergonomics and reliability did not work for me. I currently shoot a G17 in USPSA and love it. I have tried a G26, but with pinky extensions the seam between the magazine and frame it bit me pretty good on the ring finger every shot.

I settled on the P2000sk as a carry weapon because I fell in love with appendix carry, in large part to the knowledgeable posters on this forum. Due to the p30 write up from years ago I took the plunge on an HK v2, converted to V4 with the spring chart from HKPro. I like the added safety of thumbing a hammer on reholster, but transitioning to the LEM trigger is frankly kicking my ass.

I've tried slow fire bullseye, and mixing in dummy rounds in my magazines, but the result is almost always high and right. I'm anticipating for sure and don't know how to cure it. Has anyone else encountered this and pushed through it? I'm about 1k rounds in and am struggling.

I'll make an attempt to attach two photos, the first being the first 5 rounds of the day at 20 yds, and the second many shoot n see targets later. For what it's worth I don't have this issue shooting a striker fired pistol, and my M9 quake were a long time ago. At what point should I decide to stick with this platform or ditch it?

It was advice like JodyH and nyeti (one continuous pull) that I've hung my hat on as well. I'm only about 13 months and 5,000 into my LEM journey and if you've looked around you know it can take a while (I think JodyH mentioned 13k at one time, YVK talked about two years or so?).

I still have anticipation issues sometimes with the LEM that I don't have with a Glock. But, mostly only in slow fire. I'm doing decent (consistently 90+ and mid 8s on Vickers and cleaning 1/2 vickers). As I've started to keep times, given my mediocre abilities my splits at 5-7yds between the Glock and the LEM are actually about the same (ranging from high .30s to low .50s) focusing on accuracy and seeing what I need to see at my skill level.

It's hard to stick with it some times when you can pick up the Glock and shoot it better. I will say that switching back and forth is the worst thing I have done when transitioning to the LEM. It will allow self doubt to creep in. But, as some here will say, "Don't over think it." Get out of your own way and work on your skills.

That is, unless like me, AIWB is critical to your ability to carry a full size gun (which with a SK that shouldn't be too much of a problem). Good Luck. You aren't the only one on the road that is for sure!

[ubervic]

As some others have already mentioned, rating yourself only on 20-yd hits may not be giving yourself a fair chance with this fairly new setup.

Why not stop, take a deep breath, and start with something like Dot Torture at 3 yds until you clean it? You may learn much more about what is working and what is not---and why.

[JodyH]

I agree that 2" dots at 3 or 5 would be a good starting place. I wouldn't do the actual dot torture drill though, adding in reloads and transitions is a waste of time until you have basic trigger control down solid.
Shoot the dots slow until you can put 5 rounds inside every dot 100%, then pick up the pace until you're at 75% hits, back off a hair and work at that speed until it's 100%, lather, rinse, repeat.

Or just buy a Glock 26 or Walther PPS and get used to the occasional finger pinch.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Is it possible, you just need a slight left deflection of your rear sight?

This is what I was thinking, too, GJM. Looks like middlin' decent groups to me and if a bit of correction can be applied to the rear sight, this may be a winner.

[JHC]

I agree that 2" dots at 3 or 5 would be a good starting place. I wouldn't do the actual dot torture drill though, adding in reloads and transitions is a waste of time until you have basic trigger control down solid.
Shoot the dots slow until you can put 5 rounds inside every dot 100%, then pick up the pace until you're at 75% hits, back off a hair and work at that speed until it's 100%, lather, rinse, repeat.

Or just buy a Glock 26 or Walther PPS and get used to the occasional finger pinch.

If you consider going G26, I'd suggest giving it a fair bit of good work without any mag extension. Personally I think the hang up about the fingers wrapping under the short frame is mostly in the head. There may be a pinch now and then with a reload but it won't be on every shot.

[breakingtime91]

This is what I was thinking, too, GJM. Looks like middlin' decent groups to me and if a bit of correction can be applied to the rear sight, this may be a winner.

What Wayne and GJM said. It took me forever to drift my rear sight and I have much more confidence because of It

[ralph]

For me, the LEM has been a mixed bag...I do ok with it with my P-2000, but the one time I converted my HK45ct was a nightmare.. My come to Jesus moment was when I was shooting a informal match and we were shooting at a row of steel plates from about 10 yds.. Not only did I miss every one of them but, I missed by shooting 3-4" low.. This, after struggling with the LEM for about 3-4 months..(lots of dry fire/live fire) Convinced there was something wrong with the sights, (I had Trijicon HD's on it at the time) I went to the next range over, and benched the gun, I put a target out at 20yds and carefully staged the trigger, and shot 8rnds at the target. When I went out to look at the target, imagine my shock when I looked at the target and there was one ragged hole... I knew at that point that it was me and not the pistol. I also figured that the LEM wasn't going to work for me either. I switched the pistol back to DA/SA that night, and I learned to use it. That was probably one of the better decisions I made.. I also got rid of the HD's as well, and went back to the stock Meps. Lots of dry fire practice later, and now I'm at the point where I can make a DA first shot and get hits where I want them.

OP: Maybe drift you sights.. That might help. Also keep in mind the LEM isn't for everybody, and some people never get on to it..

[YVK]

Interestingly, I sometimes hit high right with my LEMs, but that's usually at a speed.
I also find that finding well zero'd sights is PITA. My Heinie sights shoot high, and HDs shoot low.

Stick or ditch is a personal choice. I don't recommend LEM to anyone 'cause I don't want to be hypocritical: all three mine went to Grayguns and I am unlikely to ever use a stock P series LEM H&K. LEM is the hardest trigger to shoot fast out of all triggers that I've ever shot, save for true DAO. That said, there is no holy grail, everything is a compromise, and to me my LEM guns offer enough benefits to put up with crap.
One could clearly get better with it; I shaved off 25 seconds of my IDPA classifier shooting same P30, and got an intermediate score at Rogers without practicing with LEM for months before the class. For my level of talent it is good enough.

I'd offer two pieces of advice if you decided to stick with it:

- Don't try to shoot it like a DA trigger or like SA trigger. Shoot it like a LEM. To me it means either of the two above, depending on a target.
- I've tested all possible spring combos and came to a deep conclusion: the lightest is the most shootable.

[psalms144.1]

When I went through my "I hate GLOCK and they hate me" phase (five bad G19s in a row, in the course of 12 months), I went to HK LEM, first a P30 then a P2000. I dedicated myself to those pistols, to include a minimum of 15 minutes of focused dry fire daily and about 500 rounds of live fire per month, for about 18 months. What I found was I could shoot the HKs MUCH more accurately at any distance in slow fire, concentrating on a deliberate, even trigger pull (not pulling to the wall then yanking through), BUT, on any/all timed drills (FAST/any variation of Bill Drills) my performance lagged, significantly, behind what I could do with a G19. After an 18 month period of shooting the HKs, and only doing semi-annual quals with my G19, I was still crushing my HK performance with the G19, in all but long range precision work (3x5s at 25, for instance).

In the intervening 18 months, having gone back to the G19, I have nearly matched the slow-fire accuracy I get with the HKs using my G19, and my "speed" performance continues to improve.

For ME, there was simply no reason to stick it out with the HKs. And, personally, since you carry a striker fired pistol at work, I don't see any advantage to carrying a hammer fired DAO off duty. Of course, this is one man's opinion, and worth precisely what you paid for it.

[1986s4]

OP, I had a similar adventure with Glocks. Tried for over a year to shoot a G17 and 19 to my satisfaction. The faster I went the more left I shot. I did discover that DA revolvers, SAO and DA/SA pistols work just fine for me. It is wonderful to have choices.